Wednesday, February 16, 2011

IHOP - The Perils of Passion

How IHOP is misleading a generation of young people with false prophecy and false teaching and promoting an elitist spirit within the body of Christ.

In our last two posts we have looked at some personal experiences regarding IHOP. In this installment, we will look at the foundations of IHOP and where that has led to today.

Scott Pursley is the Senior Pastor at Lamb of God Fellowship in Livingston, NJ. He is a teacher who is well grounded in the Word. This article was originally presented in sermon form (mp3) last September. I'd like to thank Pastor Scott for reformatting his notes for publication at BeyondGrace.



The International House of Prayer, located in Kansas City Missouri is principally the vision of one man, its founder and chief doctrinal spokesman, Mike Bickle. Therefore a critique of IHOP is in the final analysis a critique of Mike Bickle’s teaching ministry. However, because of the unusual beginnings of Mr. Bickle’s ministry and rise to national prominence it is also necessary to focus on the teaching/preaching ministries of two alleged prophets, Paul Cain and Bob Jones. Their ministries are parallel developments and significantly influence and shape Mr. Bickle’s perception of IHOP’s divinely authorized origins.

The multi-million dollar ministry that is IHOP has it roots in the modest beginnings of the Kansas City Fellowship of the early 1980’s. According to Mr. Bickle, IHOP is a direct fulfillment of prophecies delivered to him by Bob Jones and Paul Cain. Repeatedly Mr. Bickle has declared that no one has been more integral to establishing the prophetic in his ministry than Bob Jones. Part of the mythology of Mr. Jones legendary status as a prophet are numerous false prophecies, now largely forgotten. These include claims of California being destroyed, nuclear weapons being detonated on the East and West Coast, and an oft repeated story of a drought confirming special ‘divine’ authorization on Mr. Bickle’s ministry.

From the very early days of Mr. Bickle’s ministry he adapted his own version of the so called ‘Latter Rain’ teaching of the late 1940’s made popular principally through the writing of George Warnock’s ‘Feast of Tabernacles’ (As well as a hand full of other, now obscure Pentecostal heretics). This parallel has been pointed out to Mr. Bickle on numerous occasions necessitating a public denial of IHOP’s dependance on Latter Rain teaching. However, no actual substantive explanation has ensued from Mr. Bickle regarding this allegation. The false teacher and Latter Rain proponent William Branham was very influential in the theological formation of the disgraced prophet Paul Cain. Paul Cain in turn influenced greatly both Bob Jones (who frequently referred to Mr. Cain as the greatest prophet of God on the earth) and Mike Bickle who often appeared with Mr. Cain in large venues around the U.S.

The late 1980’s saw the public challenge of Mr. Bickle’s ministry by another local Kansas City pastor Ernie Gruen. Rev. Gruen produced a lengthy document attempting to document the numerous outrageous claims, false prophecies and false teachings made by Mr. Bickle, Mr. Cain and Mr. Jones. This document remains unchallenged, and Rev. Gruen stood by its truthfulness without wavering until his death several years ago. In the years after this public challenge Mr. Jones would be exposed as a sexual deviate engaged in horrendous manipulation of female congregants and Mr. Cain as a profligate homosexual and alcoholic. In spite of these very public scandals, Mr. Bickle’s current ministry appears undaunted and unaffected by the well established facts of the above history.

What are the specific errors of IHOP?

IHOP continues to draw a great deal of its sense of special calling and destiny from the alleged prophets Bob Jones and Paul Cain. This in spite of the well known track record of both men. Every matriculating ‘One Thing’ intern is required to listen to a lengthy prophetic history of IHOP/KCF as part of their training while resident at the IHOP program. At no point is their any mention of the numerous false prophecies or profound moral failures of these men. In 2009 Mr. Bickle refreshed IHOP’s teaching on its alleged prophetic history in an 8 part series detailing the role of prophecy in establishing IHOP’s divine origins. But what false teachings emerge from the prophetic hoopla?

  1. That prior to the return of Jesus, and as a necessary condition of Christ’s return - apostles and prophets of unparalleled spiritual power, and prophetic accuracy will arise to guide the church into its final days.
    1. To anyone who knows anything about the so-called ‘Latter Rain Movement’ of the late 40’s this teaching will sound quite reminiscent of that movements emphasis on unprecedented latter day prophets and apostles.
    2. This idea cannot be sustained by an appeal to the plain teaching of the N.T. Nowhere do we read of a single promise of some future ‘super’ class of latter day prophets and apostles. I challenge any teacher to make the case for the clear teaching of this idea anywhere in the N.T. It cannot be the case that something as consequential to the entire church would have no plain biblical foundation, but only appeals to present ‘prophetic’ spokesmen and allegorical applications of scripture.
  2. That a ‘perfected church’ walking in unparalleled supernatural power (raising the dead will become ordinary, and no illness will be able to stand before this perfected church), will arise as a pre-condition of Christ’s return.
    1. These claims have been repeatedly made for the past 60 years by Latter Rain influenced teachers as well as the disgraced prophet Paul Cain (in his famous ‘stadium visions’) as well as Bob Jones.
    2. Once again, like the claim of super prophets and apostles, the claim of a ‘perfected church’ cannot be sustained by an appeal to the clear teaching of the N.T. The notion that verses which speak of the church growing up to maturity, or unity being used to substantiate claims of a coming super church are dubious at best.
  3. Mr. Bickle teaches that prior to the return of Christ, a special class of Christians called ‘forerunners’ will be raised up to prepare the church for the return of Christ.
    1. IHOP’s defines ‘forerunner’ in the following way: Forerunners are messengers who proclaim “now” what the Holy Spirit is “soon” to emphasize in a universal way across the nations. They are “one short step” ahead of what the Holy Spirit is about to openly release, so they can prepare the people to respond rightly to Jesus by making known God’s plans so the people can make sense of what will happen before it actually happens.
    2. IHOP has developed so many specialized ‘terms’ that it became necessary to write and post a glossary on their web site. Dr. Andrew Jackson writing of this phenomena states: A cautionary red light should go on whenever we discover any church or Christian movement creating, and extensively using, their own exclusive language. The habitual use of insider language by a Christian movement can develop a “we-are-different culture” within the greater church. Soon a person’s use of prescribed terms and phrases is the way to determine whether they are true “insiders.” It can also easily create a “us” and “them” attitude within the Body of Christ. Many Christians living within such a cloistered culture can often find it difficult to leave or relate with other Christians, who do not speak “their language,” and who are frequently seen as spiritually luke-warm or compromising.
    3. This teaching of a special class was not the first time Mr. Bickle and his associated ministry had set forth this kind of teaching. In the mid 80’s and into the 90’s the term favored by Mr. Bickle and his resident prophets Bob Jones and Paul Cain was the ‘New Breed’. Some 50 years before a small but influential group called the Latter Rain taught the same ideas under the name the ‘overcomers’ – George Warnock wrote in 1951 - Christ is going to remain right where He is at God’s right hand until there shall arise a group of overcomers who shall conquer over all God’s enemies. This is really no different than Bickle’s words - "He is not coming any day. He is not coming until the people of God globally are crying out in intercession with a bridal identity under the anointing of the Spirit. Right now the prayer movement is growing fast….really fast! But when I say it's growing fast instead of one percent of the Body of Christ taking hold of it, maybe 10 percent. It's….you know it's like 10 times bigger than it was a generation ago, but beloved as fast as the prayer movement is growing, where people are getting hold of it, still for 90 percent of the Body of Christ it's not even on their mind. Jesus is not coming until the Body of Christ globally is crying out "Come Lord Jesus, Come Lord Jesus, Come Lord Jesus" and they don't just say "come and forgive me" they are crying out in the understanding of who they are as the one that is cherished by Jesus in the bridal identity.”
  4. IHOP teaches as a pre-condition of the return of Christ, the church must be crying out 24/7 ‘Come, Lord, Jesus Come with a full understanding of the so-called ‘ bridal identity’.
    1. IHOP's own self-understanding is that it has been given the task and calling of informing the entire church globally of this necessity. This task will be fulfilled by establishing Houses of Prayer all around the world and engaging in 24/7 prayer. (Just as an aside this requires 84 2-hour slots of worship/prayer per week and incredibly expensive undertaking.)
      • The concept of the bridal paradigm is at the core of IHOP’s reason for existence. The bridal paradigm or identity is an understanding of the relationship between the individual Christian and Christ that is analogous to the romantic/emotional/sensual relationship a husband has with his wife. This is a biblically unsustainable construct, whose theological foundations rest on a hyper allegorical interpretation of the Song of Solomon.
      • IHOP sets forth the personal devotional expectation that the ‘last days’ necessary spiritual identity of bridal mysticism is a pre-condition to Christ returning to the earth. This understanding of Christian devotional spirituality owes more to the writings of Bernard of Clairvaux and the Bridal mysticism of the Medieval female monastics than to the teaching of the N.T. According to Leon Podles excellent study of the feminization of Christianity entitled “The Church Impotent” ‘After about 1300 in Germany it was chiefly among women that the ‘Brautmystic’ i.e. the love affair between Christ and the soul, leading to espousal and marriage was to be found.’ Later male writers were required to go through all sorts of convolutions to adapt this kind of language to their spiritual situation.
      • The Bible does teach that the church is the bride of Christ, but its primary emphasis in both the occasions that this figure occurs in the O.T. as well as the half dozen or so times it occurs in the N.T. is not on emotional/spiritual intimacy but on the covenantal faithfulness of God to his people. Marriage is used as a picture of covenant commitment, not as a pattern for individual Christian devotion.
      • But with the Bridal mysticism of IHOP also comes a host of other ‘anointings’ allegedly to be sought after by the most hungry and sincere Christians among us – the so-called ‘ wilderness lifestyle of John the Baptist (a lifestyle by the way the bible tells us absolutely nothing about); Anna anointing. Referring to Anna who "did not depart from the temple… In application, this refers to the grace to spend long hours in prayer with fasting and to sustain it for many years; Daniel anointing. A special grace to enter into extended periods of fasting and prayer, specifically seeking revelation as to the meaning and implications of dreams, visions, or other divine communications regarding the end times…Joseph anointing. Referring to those called to prosper in the marketplace so that they might make provision to "preserve life" in the time when God releases His end-time judgments on the earth.




Conclusions: I believe that IHOP is promoting a version of Christianity that is rooted in false prophecies and false prophets. There is a clear link between the IHOP of 2010 and the claims of divine authorization from the early 1980’s and Kansas City Fellowship. A great deal of the intensity and bold assertions to do what they do come directly from the false prophets Bob Jones and Paul Cain. Second, there are troubling examples of Mike Bickle knowingly continuing claims that have been shown to be false. Stories that allegedly authenticate the divine origins of Paul Cain and Bob Jones have been proven false, but are still circulated by the ministry. There has been no serious effort by IHOP to disassociate itself with the words of men who so thoroughly qualify as false prophets. The central claims made by IHOP regarding its legitimacy – The rise of new apostles and prophets (as sources of authority); the end times revival of unprecedented signs and wonders; the necessity of the church embracing the bridal paradigm; the emergence of a special class called the ‘forerunners’ are not taught by the Scriptures. These ideas own more to the independent Pentecostal movement of the mid 1940’s called the Latter Rain (a connection IHOP is well aware that others have made, and their response is to simply deny it) than to the plain teaching of the Word of God.

IHOP in its previous incarnation as the Kansas City Fellowship has a track record of stirring up division with promises of ‘amazing power and greatly expanded ministry. Leaders were told that they would be speaking to multitudes, seeing miracles, witnessing to kings and presidents and enjoying tremendous blessings… None of these things came to pass. Nearly 20 years ago Mike Bickle acknowledged a spirit of elitism had characterized the KCF. But the same teachings that produced it were replicated again in the ministry of IHOP and its so-called ‘Forerunner’ calling. Tom Stipe remarked in his testimony published as the forward to Hank Hanegraaff’s book called Counterfeit Revival: “Not long after ‘prophecy du jour’ became the primary source of direction, a trail of devastated believers began to line up outside our pastoral counseling offices. Young people promised teen success and stardom through prophecy were left picking up the pieces of their shattered hopes because God had apparently gone back on his promises…” One of the things Tom Stipe stated in his testimony – “We listened intently to the flattery of our new friends, the prophets. Our skepticism barely peaked above the surface.” This is precisely what scriptures warns about concerning false prophets and false teachers: ‘by smooth talk and flattery the deceive the hearts of the na├»ve.’ (Romans 16:18b)

Consistently the false prophets of the KCF/IHOP circle prophesied ‘visions of their own minds, not from the mouth of the Lord’ (either because what they prophesied did not come to pass or what it taught was not biblical). Consistently they spoke of angels, and going on in detail about visions (warned against in Col. 2:18) Consistently they spoke of frequent angel visitations, trips to heaven almost at will, bizarre teachings about ‘bloodlines’, conversations with dead saints, face to face meetings with Jesus etc. In precisely the very way that scripture warned about false prophets confirming one another’s words – the false prophets of KCF/IHOP confirmed one another with flattery upon flattery. Yet 2 Peter 2 warns of those false prophets like Bob Jones and Paul Cain who follow their sensuality and who ‘because of their conduct bring disgrace on the way of truth.’ Peter even warns that they have ‘eyes full of adultery and are insatiable for sin’, the very character of the man who Mike Bickle and others called the ‘greatest prophet on the earth’ – Paul Cain. It is precisely this kind of hypocrisy that Jesus and the apostles warned about and against.

It is because of these things that we must warn against involvement with IHOP. Its foundation built upon the words of false prophets, its core teaching’s insistence on a hyped-up mixture of elitism, reliance on subjectivity and mysticism, and teaching which cannot be sustained by the plain reading of the scriptures compel us to warn. Consider the words of a former intern from the One Thing Internship:
This is a very close paraphrase of what I’ve heard many, many times at One Thing, IHOP conferences and in teachings by leaders: “YOU are called to be on the cutting edge. Come here and join a community of other people who are like you, called to what you’re called to. We understand you. You’ve been mis-understood in the church. You’ve had your wings clipped, your gifts misunderstood. Here you can fulfill your forerunner calling that your family just hasn’t understood about you. You might feel like you don’t fit back home, you’re on the outside, no one understands the fire in you. Well we get it. You are the leaders that G-d is raising up in these end times and you will be kings and queens on the earth—reigning with Him. You were made for this place. IHOP is an incubator for people like you.”
Narcissistic speeches like this instill a sense of pride, arrogance and elitism in the hearts of youth who hear it and it feeds their need for validation and identity. They run to IHOP, leave their families, join internships…hoping that what they’ve heard is true. They go to IHOP looking for identity…instead of finding it in Jesus. Once outside of the IHOP environment, they are terrified and overwhelmed by the “real” world and don’t know how to function in it when they’ve been in an intensive internship environment. There is a degree of re-acclimating to normal life that feels like an IHOP detox afterward. It’s a severe emotional drop because the hyped up services and conferences that were your manna are now gone and when there is no prayer room, your life in God feels empty and lifeless. Many simply don’t know how to engage with God in a real day-to-day basis once they’ve left. I experienced this and heard the exact same thing from a handful of my friends after they left IHOP and the internship. At that point when disillusionment sets in, I know many interns that walked away from God completely upon leaving the internship and went back into lifestyles worse than the ones they left when they came to IHOP originally.” May God have mercy on those who teach these pernicious lies and bring them to a place of humble repentance and renunciation of what cannot succeed and will only in the long run bring disillusionment, and profound discouragement to the thousands of young people who are held in its destructive grasp.



See also: Red Flags over IHOP - Devotion or Deception? The Mother of all IHOP Caualties Revisionism and The Blueprint Prophecy Tags: Glory, Grace Covenant Church Harrisonburg, gcch.org,JMU-HOP, jmuhop, theprayerfurnace, Fredericksburg Prayer Furnace, 24-7 Virginia, Chi Alpha, IHOP, David Bradshaw, Randy Martinez, Solemn Assembly, Prayer Room, Campus Strike Force

97 comments:

  1. Thank you for this resource, specifically for this article. I can say what this pastor wrote is easily the most well articulated, well researched, thoughtful, understandable, and concise piece on IHOP I have seen to date. Very good presentation for a short piece and a terrific apologetic resource to use and share.

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  2. Sounds like Amway...and Amway most definitely has strong cultic tendencies. Isolation; cut off from friends and family that aren't in/don't go along with "the business"; critics are haters and negative; any criticism is labeled "the devil is coming against it"; the quarterly rah-rah pep-rally conferences; never question anything, all critical faculties are to be suppressed...and on an on.

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  3. blog is too gud... nice article i agree with your post and thanks for giving information.....

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  4. I can understand having theological differences with IHOP, but I would strongly encourage the author to spend some time at IHOP and meet normal staff people. The things in this article are things I used to believe until I got to know some of the leaders and actually came to some events and listened to the teaching personally. I wonder how many IHOP conferences the author has actually been to. If they have attended many, they would know that Mike frequently tells the audience not to believe anything he preaches unless you can find it for yourself in the Bible.

    The author should also do some more research on the Ernie Gruen report. That report actually was discredited as exaggerations and misunderstandings. The story is not nearly as clean as it's presented in this article. The only reason the Ernie Gruen report still circulates is because Mike spoke with Ernie and others about the report behind the scenes rather than attacking Ernie publicly. Respected leaders that are not a part of IHOP will tell you that the Gruen report was not accurate at all and they are surprised it's still circulating as truth. It is not true either to say that the report was unchallenged until Ernie's death.

    The idea that IHOP recommends people cut off ties to family is completely ludicrous. They do no such thing. It's also irresponsible to quote that intern as though that is a direct quote of IHOP leaders. Something like that would never be said from an IHOP platform. In fact, Mike Bickle constantly emphasizes the the opposite idea with repeated teaching on how simple, unnoticed obedience and faithfulness in the small things of life is the great measure of life. There are obviously some other things going on in that person's life and I hope someone helps him work through those issues. it sounds like he heard what he wanted to at IHOP and then became disillusioned when his dreams didn't come to pass the way he expected.

    I would humbly challenge the author, because I've made the exact same error before numerous times in evaluating a movement that I was concerned about but not directly associated with, that this is a superficial critique of IHOP mixing and matching various charismatic streams, some completely unorthodox, and then drawing conclusions by assigning IHOP the errors of groups that might have used similar language. The author is using guilt by association with groups that IHOP really does not have any substantial association with.

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    1. Very unbiblical.

      Why would you challenge the author to spend time with a false teacher? The teacher's teachings and pronouncements are public. There's no dispute over what he teaches. The Bible says that we're to "mark" those who cause divisions by teaching contrary doctrine and then avoid them--not meet with them; not get to know them; not see what their side of the story is.

      They are publicly teaching: that is their side of the story.

      "I would humbly challenge the author, because I've made the exact same error before numerous times in evaluating a movement that I was concerned about but not directly associated with, that this is a superficial critique of IHOP mixing and matching various charismatic streams, some completely unorthodox, and then drawing conclusions by assigning IHOP the errors of groups that might have used similar language."

      Not biblical nor factual.

      IHOP is deceptive. IHOP's doctrines are out there for all the world to see. Check out their training materials (perhaps you're more familiar with these than you let on). They claim they are going to "pray down the judgments of Revelation on the antichrist."

      What they claim is nowhere in the Bible for Christianity.

      It IS in the Bible, however, for the whore of Babylon Church which rises up, achieves worldwide dominion (what a coincidence!) and then does signs and lying wonders and "great wonders" even making "fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,"

      This second beast system will look like a Lamb (Christianity) but will speak like a dragon (Satan). [Rev 13:11, 13]

      The author is being Biblcial and is performing a service to the Body of Christ by exposing the antichrist teachings and doctrines of IHOP.

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  5. Gruen's report is substantiated by people I know who knew Gruen (and Bickle back in the 80's), by contemporaneous reports in the media, and by John Wimber, who was called in to try to make correction.

    As one who was involved in the Charismatic movement at that time (I'm still Pentecostal), the problems in Kansas City were well known. Much of this is illustrated in David Pytches book "Some Said it Thundered," and even in Bickle's "Growing in the Prophetic"

    I know that I and the author of this article have spent literally hundreds of hours researching IHOP and the Ernie Gruen report. Some of our associates have even confirmed with Gruen that he never recanted his report (as some from IHOP have claimed). See here:

    http://thegreycoats.wordpress.com/the-vindication-of-ernie-gruen/

    However, the point of mentioning Gruen's report is NOT to keep hashing those allegations over and over, but to indicate that the problems at IHOP are nothing new.

    Rest assured, my critiques of IHOP are not superficial, but based on studies of the incredible volumes of teachings produced by Mike Bickle himeself.

    Please, if you have specific point of doctrine that you wish to discuss, bring them up. I cannot respond to blanket condemnation. Here's a link to various articles posted here on Mike Bickle.

    http://beyondgrace.blogspot.com/search/label/Mike%20Bickle

    I believe Scott Pursley's summation of doctrinal issues with IHOP to be accurate and not hyperbole. Let's talk.

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  6. To anonymous: A number of things I'd like to respond to in your post. 1. I've been to IHOP, spent significant time in the prayer room and have a up close and personal knowledge of both its teaching and practices. 2. My daughter was an intern, spent six months at IHOP and I've examined the fruit of that internship very carefully. 3. I carefully read considerable teaching material from IHOP, making certain that I was immersing myself in Mr. Bickle's words, not critics interpretations of what he teaches. 4. I investigated carefully the credibility of the late Ernie Gruen's report (and thanks in part to the work done by the Grey Coats) believe that the evidence is credible. 5. The late John Wimber substantiated at least 15 points of error in the aftermath of Gruen's report. 6. Mr. Bickle acknowledged a number of those in a 1990's Charisma article, one of those - 'elitism' remains hardwired into the core of the continuing error perpetrated by IHOP - the so called 'forerunner' calling. 7. Because of a long term relationship with the co-author of the two books by John Wimber 'Power healing' & 'Power Evangelism' I had and have access to information which largely substantiates Gruen's report, as well as the collapse of the so-called 'accountability' relationship between the Vineyard and the KCF. 8. The dependent relationship which IHOP continues to maintain with the disgraced false prophet Paul Cain's 'prophecies' is indefensible. Cain is the quintessential fulfillment of the bible's template for false prophet. His secret lifestyle, his not so subtle endorsement of Latter Rain theology, his numerous false prophecies, his public lies concerning his so-called divine origins, even his fairly recent involvement in the Lakeland debacle only confirms his untrustworthiness. 9. The continuing mythology surrounding Bob Jones, another dependency maintained by IHOP through their reliance on his so-called prophecies that embellish KCF/IHOP's grandiosity. Jones has made so many ridiculous false prophecies as well as claims of trips to heaven, conversations with angels, dead saints, and demons it boggles the mind that some how he manages to have a shred of credibility. Yet, thanks in part to IHOP's narrative account of their 'divine' origins hundreds, if not thousands of interns and others associated with IHOP are exposed to the likes of Bob Jones. 8. While a growing body of antidotal information and testimony exists to the darker side of IHOP's fruit - my contention is that it is the teaching of IHOP which is substantiates my (and many others) charge that IHOP core propositions are false.

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  7. continued from previous post... to Anonymous

    And listen carefully to this Anonymous - The so called 'Bridal Paradigm', at the very core of IHOP's identity is a hugely overstated, biblically flimsy assertion. It cannot stand up to theological scrutiny. The perpetuation of the idea that Apostles and Prophets with authority and power of the same order as the Apostles and Prophets of the N.T. is no where taught by the N.T. The continuing perpetration of the elitist Forerunner calling can't be sustained by any appeal to the clear teaching of the N.T. These things are not what 'others' have said about them. These are the things they say about themselves. I make no judgment about Mike Bickle's sincerity, or passion for what he teaches. I don't have an proof that Mike Bickle is evil, or knowingly false. (Although the association in any way with either Cain or Jones is hard to comprehend). But his teaching is readily available for evaluation. The claims of IHOP can be examined. You repeat the same weak defense for IHOP that I believe has been repeated so often that it now is believed to be true - Ernie Gruen was discredited, Ernie Gruen recanted, Ernie Gruen's charges were proven false. Say this over and over again, don't look any further, just keep saying it until it becomes fact. This however is not true. Whatever flaws Ernie Gruen might have had - he simply transcribed hours of teaching given by Bickle, Jones, Cain and others as well as interviewing local leaders who had been victimized by KCF.

    I recently acquired a copy of 'Some Say It Thundered'. Here is a fluff piece if one ever existed. It presents the entire KFC legend in all its glory. But it was written in the early 90's and so in hindsight 20 years later we have the capacity to evaluate much of what it asserts - and it is remarkable how much false hood can be proven. Cain is presented as some angelic holy man - yet the facts of the past decades demonstrate how utterly deceived so many people were in the era of Cain's popularity. Detail about his 'gift' of celibacy are boldly asserted, serving to embellish Cain as some nearly divine super prophet - when the facts are he was a closeted homosexual engaging in repeated immorality the entire time he was ministering.

    IHOP could end in a large part the rising voice of criticism - repudiate Cain & Jones as false prophets. Acknowledge they were deceived by these men, and remove their words, the stories about them, and the reliance on their prophecies for elevating IHOP as the great last days move of God. Acknowledge that IHOP's conviction about the imminence of Christ's return is simply their convictions, not something which God has 'told' them. They can certainly assert that the end is near, they can make their defense for it based on their beliefs that this is what the bible teaches - but stop creating the impression that God let them in on details of the end that no one else has. Acknowledge that the 'Bridal Paradigm' is not explicitly taught by the scriptures, and that there are alternate opinions about the meaning of Song of Solomon, rather than creating the impression that Bickle's read of it is 'divinely' authorized. Acknowledge the similarity between KCF & IHOP's teaching and the Latter Rain, and very publicly and in no uncertain terms - distance yourself from anything that even hints of this connection.

    Dear Anonymous - read Dr. Jackson's evaluation of IHOP, its linked in the recent NY Times article on IHOP - http://journal.equip.org/articles/forerunner-eschatology He dialogued with Bickle. His assertions in this article are carefully stated and clear.

    I have a prediction - and its not 'prophecy'. Either IHOP acknowledges their problems and moves to really clean it's house or plan on joining Harold Camping, and dozens of other end times experts on the junk heap of failed 'end times' movements that boldly claimed 'we know' only to find they didn't.

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  8. Anonymous:

    In the same way you have encouraged the author of this website to sit under the teachings if IHOP in order to better understand what it is they are teaching, etc., I suggest that you, in turn, go to IHOP leadership with your own valid doctrinal differences that you may hold, providing you hold some, and see how warmly you are received. Take your bible, point out the error, and note their response. Wouldn't this be a fair way to test your current trust of this leadership and wouldn't it reveal their humility, or lack thereof.

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  9. If they have attended many, they would know that Mike frequently tells the audience not to believe anything he preaches unless you can find it for yourself in the Bible.

    And I wonder how many actually do test him. I think not many since those who do are told to leave. You know the Mormons do the same thing, they tell people to test until they have that "burning of the boson" experience.

    Mr. Bickle can tell as many people as he wants to "check it out" knowing full well that it won't be done.

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    1. Jerusalamabove2/22/14, 10:47 AM

      I know a man who knows the Scriptures and admits some of Bickle's teachings are false, but he still promotes Bickle's ministry, and is very much under the spell of the so called "Bridal Paradigm." It is amazing how, once you hold hands with these lying "prophets," you become willing to excuse all manner of inconsistencies and lies.

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  10. The idea that IHOP recommends people cut off ties to family is completely ludicrous. They do no such thing.


    Yes they do! Are you brain washed as the rest of them...

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  11. Dear Anonymous; The antidotal reply 'Mike tells people not to believe anything he says unless they find it in the bible' is not a useful admonition to an audience which has already suspended its critical judgment. Harold Camping vigorously defended his precise dating of the return of Christ with numerous reference to the scriptures. No false teacher, who asserts to be biblical is going to say anything other than 'check out my teaching in the word. But its Bickle who creates the interpretive gird. He's the one defining how you even read the bible. Those sitting listening are presented with virtually the same kind of reasoning as those who fall under Harold Camping's allegorical interpretive methodology.

    Dear Anonymous - do you really think that 15-23 yr olds possess the knowledge, and experience to critically evaluate Bickle's teaching?

    My criticism of IHOP and similarly thinking groups (Morningstar & Bethel or example) is, that when you subject their core teachings to critical thinking and sound biblical interpretation it doesn't hold up. It will collapse with just simple questions like - is the 'bridal paradigm' plainly taught by scripture. If it were then Christian teachers would been teaching consistently. To find the bridal paradigm taught at all one has to dip into to mystical teachings of medieval nuns. Yes, Christian have taught elements of the church as bride (because it is in the bible). But Bickle has raised it to the level of core, central and absolutely essential for bringing Christ back to earth. That is not taught in the bible. It isn't taught historically by Christian teachers. Its emphasis at IHOP is false, and its alleged 'intimacy' sets up a paradigm of sensually based devotion that cannot be sustained and must inevitably lead to disappointment. You can do the 'simple question' test with most all of IHOP defining doctrine - New apostles & prophets; Forerunner calling; last days revival; anna anointing, wilderness lifestyle, joseph anointing, daniel anointing - none of these things are actually taught by the bible - they are drawn from scripture in a way that makes them sound very 'biblical' but they in fact are not. They are theological contrivances from the mind of M. Bickle and others who see what he sees, because they were taught to see what he sees.

    I'm sorry that your sacred cows are getting poked by challenges to your favorite teachings - but friend, I am deeply concerned for the thousands of young people who will in time find these hyped promises unsustainable - and with that discovery may lose hope and walk away from the faith, or at the very least be temporarily undone.

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  12. Jude (ESV)

    3Beloved, although I was very eager to write to you about our common salvation, I found it necessary to write appealing to you to contend for the faith that was once for all delivered to the saints. 4For certain people have crept in unnoticed who long ago were designated for this condemnation, ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into sensuality and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.

    8Yet in like manner these people also, relying on their dreams, defile the flesh, reject authority, and blaspheme the glorious ones. 9But when the archangel Michael, contending with the devil, was disputing about the body of Moses, he did not presume to pronounce a blasphemous judgment, but said, "The Lord rebuke you." 10 But these people blaspheme all that they do not understand, and they are destroyed by all that they, like unreasoning animals, understand instinctively. 11Woe to them! For they walked in the way of Cain and abandoned themselves for the sake of gain to Balaam’s error and perished in Korah’s rebellion. 12These are hidden reefs[e] at your love feasts, as they feast with you without fear, shepherds feeding themselves; waterless clouds, swept along by winds; fruitless trees in late autumn, twice dead, uprooted; 13 wild waves of the sea, casting up the foam of their own shame; wandering stars, for whom the gloom of utter darkness has been reserved forever.

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  13. Is it wrong to desire to prophecy? Or to seek the presence of God? Or to pray continually? Or preach the Gospel? Or desire the Gifts of the Spirit? Or to desire fruit of the Spirit? Or to be Healed? Or to cast out demons? Or to warn of Christ coming? Or to preach the Word? To be intimate with Christ?

    Yeah maybe the movement was started by some perverts but have you ever looked porn? There are dark sides to us all. Can God save us from those to advance His Kingdom? We are all humans we need to submit to Christ or there is use living.

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  14. Shannon,

    Of course, none of those things in your first list are wrong. I think you missed the entire point ofthe article - please read the four points again.

    And yes, I will agree that all have sinned, and that we need the mercy of God bought through the blood of Jesus. However, to continue in sin, to have a mother and daughter stand naked before you while you prophesy to them in Jesus name, or to sodomize young interns at the prophetic retreat center called Shiloh, or to stand before a huge crowd, tell them you see angels, and then tell them you have remained celibate all your life- why this is the sort of smoke and mirrors that comprise the foundation of IHOP. It's really sad, wouldn't you agree?

    Thanks for stopping by.

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  15. For News from Brazil and the author. Mike received the correction from John Wimber and publicly confessed to the errors about Earnie's word, but Earnie never came to MIke with it. Shouldn't of he came to him, or you will have to say he is not really a brother then.

    The Bridal paradigm doesn't exist in scripture, interesting. Passion for Jesus leading to sensuality, amazing. Quite a stretch there. I live in socal, lack of passion for Jesus leads to a lot of compromise here, not too much passion for Jesus. Here are some scripture on the bridal paradigm sense you seem intent on taking it out or discounting. Interesting sense at the marriage supper of the lamb the bride (us) will be there. Jhn 3:29, Rev 21:2, Rev 21:9, Rev 22:17. Also it's in revelation where He says don't take away from the words of this book. Lets just take out the references to the body of Christ too, or Christ being the door sense its only mentioned once, or the Trinity, it's not there. Having young people get sold out for Jesus where they want to worship Him and go do anything for Him is not a bad thing in my book. Elitism is wrong, but almost every time Mike brings up forerunner's he qualifies it so people don't think this is any unusual thing, but part of the body that is going to be consecrated wholly to stir others on so that Christ will have a bride that loves Him above all else. I have a strong sense that whoever wrote this would have hard time with Charles Finney's theology, JOhn Wesleys theology and methods and most of the leaders of the great awakening who were calling the church to radical obedience.

    You say that the present day apostles and prophets will not be on the same level as the N.T. That is not taught in scripture anywhere, that there will be a difference. So I do challenge your theology. There was may schools of prophets in Elijah's times that they didn't write books of the bible but they are still prophets and obviously had a great purpose even though they were not authoring books of the bible. APostles and prophets won't cease, they were all given for the maturing of the body, till we come to the fullness of the stature of Christ. Wow, we surely look like Christ right now. I think not we are a powerless, spotted, impure bride, and divided.

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  16. Don said:
    "Mike received the correction from John Wimber and publicly confessed to the errors about Earnie's word, but Earnie never came to MIke with it. Shouldn't of he came to him, or you will have to say he is not really a brother then."

    Don,

    Thanks for writing. Not only was I deeply involved in the Charismatic movement at the time of the Gruen report, but I have an extensive collection of contemporaneous source material.

    The assertions you made (above) about Gruen could not be further from the truth. I'm sure you would not want to further the spreading of lies, so let's set the record straight as established by several witnesses.

    First, Ernest Gruen himself:

    "Finally, the Lord Jesus Christ laid it firmly on my heart that something had to be done. I decided to obey Matthew 18. I met with Mike privately, and then met twice with Mike and members of his leadership group. These efforts proved fruitless. During the meetings, aspects of Mike’s character which were extremely troubling came out. Mike Bickle delivered ominous spiritual warnings threatening me with harm. Our concerns were deepened rather than alleviated. Outer “lip service” reassurances by Mike never generated any real change of heart or practice."

    According to this testimony, Gruen met with Bickle BEFORE the release of his report, in fact before his sermon ("Do we keep smiling..") on the same subject.

    Mike Bickle is well known for his historical revisionism, but I do not think that even Bickle would deny that he met several times with Gruen - before and after the report - to discuss the issues raised in the report.

    But the attempts are coming to a resolution did not stop there. The very purpose of Gruen's report was to set up a meeting with other leaders (the Network of Christian Ministries). While this was taking place, at the last minute, John Wimber stepped in and Gruen accepted his intervention in place of the larger meeting.

    The January 14, 1991 issue of Christianity Today published an article on the KCP titled "Seers in the Heartland." In that article, Michael Maudlin reports:

    "I call the church again to find out where Ernest Gruen is.... It seems he and his staff are caught in a multihour meeting with John Wimber, Paul Cain, Mike Bickle and Jack Deere. In fact, the meeting is taking a turn, Gruen says, that would make it "inappropriate" for him to talk to CHRISTIANITY TODAY about his charges."

    That meeting, according to other sources, took place on June 28, 1990.

    Jamie Buckingham also reports (Ministries Today August 1990) of a Memorial Day weekend meeting between Gruen, Wimber and Gruen.

    Why is it that so many people want to flip this thing around and make it all about Gruen? Lee Grady noted in his October 1990 article in Ministries Today that in his interviews with Mike Bickle and Ernest Gruen and some of the other players: "Never did I detect hostility in anyone I interviewed." Yet, consitently among the Bickle defenders today, I sense much hostility. Why is that, do you think?

    Anyhow, if you would care to discuss the ISSUES of the report, I would invite you to bring it to this blog, but only after you have taken the time to actually read it. here's the link:

    http://www.birthpangs.org/articles/kcp/Abberent%20Practises.pdf

    I know this will require a considerable investment of time, but it will be worthwhile and should help you to avoid mis-statements as above in the future.

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  17. Bickle is a heretic, Lonnie Frisbee was a man beyond his time. And Wimber (much like the rest of the vineyard bunch), are a bunch of phonies. The crazy stuff that went on during the Toronto Blessing (I was there, I assure you the stuff was nuts).

    http://faithinconsistent.wordpress.com

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  18. I came from a House of Prayer closely connected to IHOP and by the grace of God, He rescued me from the deception. I wish my friends had ears to hear this!

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  19. Pathetic: while the world around us moves towards hell, some believe they have a call to critique their brothers. Why bother to dwell in the past, when we are clearly told to judge based only on fruit of ministry today? (Bringing 27000+ young people to celebrate God's sovereignty is a feat accomplishable only by God!) It sounds like someone is so preoccupied with demons, they're determined to find the worst in anyone else. Yes, occasionally the history of IHOP may be rocky, but who doesn't have a "plank in our own eye"? While noone should just abandon their convictions, would it not be better to quietly come alongside, work with one'e purported brothers, and assess then whether God is honoring one's efforts? Scripture is replete with warnings against resisting the works of God (e.g.in both the trials of Christ and the early apostles). Whether IHOP (Mike Bickle et al) are or are not of God will be revealed when God is indeed ready. We all have more imoportant work to do until then!

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  20. Anon,
    If you understood the history and theology of IHOP, you would know that those who try to come alongside and make correction are called "mad (rabid) dogs."
    This is the legacy of Mike Bickle.

    I belive that the author of this article was talking about IHOP now, not in the past. You comment makes little sense.

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  21. 1) Calling attention to what someone is teaching is not persecuting them.

    2) pointing out what one believes to be the logical conclusion of another's teachings and practices is not persecuting them.

    ... 3) Taking strong objection, even to the point of demonstrating emotion and using forceful language and occasional rhetoric devices, to another's teachings is not persecuting them.

    4) Warning others that they may be better off avoiding the teachings of certain ministers is not persecuting these ministers

    Tim

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  22. Passionate For Jesus1/18/12, 5:20 PM

    I am compelled to join in as one who follows IHOP but has never attended an internship or their school but has followed IHOP from another city for several years.

    Specifically concerning the foundation of their teaching in scripture.

    I think the first main point that must be addressed is this. No where in the N.T does it say that the Apostolic and Prophetic ministry would cease and that the Church would primarily operate with Pastors, Teachers and Evangelists. But many in their so called orthodox christianity hold to this belief. What is being implied by the prayer movement and many others streams in the body of Christ is that these ministries are going to be restored according to the word of God because they were never meant to go away which is an error by the majority of the body of Christ and if you read what the apostolic and prophetic ministries did in the bible it is not a over-hyped conclusion that if God releases the John 14:12 annointing I am quoting Jesus here 12 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do he will do also; and greater works than these he will do, because I go to My Father."

    so Christians who believe in what Jesus said will be working some extraordinary miracles in the name of Jesus just like they did in the bible it's not elitism it's called faith. Jesus qualified this statement of who would do these works was Jesus being elite here? Are you doing the works that Jesus did and greater works than he did?

    Ephesians 4:11-16 11 And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, 12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, 13 till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; 14 that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting, 15 but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head—Christ— 16 from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effective working by which every part does its share, causes growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love.

    This is the vision statement that the Apostle Paul gave to the body of Christ have we fulfilled it yet? Could it be we haven't because we have chosen to eleviate 2 of the ministries that God himself gave to the Church for it to come to it's fullness? Could it be that God is going to bring the Body of Christ to fullness by restoring the Apostolic and Prophetic ministry to the Church as the word of God says?

    More to come! on next post

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  23. Passionate For Jesus1/18/12, 5:23 PM

    Bridal Paradigm Thoughts

    Ephesians 5:22-33 22 Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord. 23 For the husband is head of the wife, as also Christ is head of the church; and He is the Savior of the body. 24 Therefore, just as the church is subject to Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in everything.
    25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for her, 26 that He might sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word, 27 that He might present her to Himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing, but that she should be holy and without blemish. 28 So husbands ought to love their own wives as their own bodies; he who loves his wife loves himself. 29 For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as the Lord does the church. 30 For we are members of His body,[d] of His flesh and of His bones. 31 “For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.”[e] 32 This is a great mystery, but I speak concerning Christ and the church. 33 Nevertheless let each one of you in particular so love his own wife as himself, and let the wife see that she respects her husband.

    Notice in the above verses that Paul uses marriage to reveal the primary relationship between Christ and the Church. Verse 32 Paul says he speaks a great mystery and the great mystery he is revealing is that everything he is talking about in marriage betwen a man and a woman really represents Christ and the Church?

    More to Come!

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  24. Passionate For Jesus1/18/12, 5:26 PM

    More Bridal Paradigm

    Revelation 19:9 Then he said to me, “Write: ‘Blessed are those who are called to the marriage supper of the Lamb!’” And he said to me, “These are the true sayings of God.”

    Blessed are those who are called to the Marriage Supper of the Lamb? Is the Lamb getting married who is he getting married to? If it's to the Church don't you think that the Church should understand in a primary way that she is being prepared for a wedding and that she is in a primary way the Bride of Christ? How can she be the bride of Christ if she doesn't understand very cleary Bridal Paradigm Teaching also refer back to Ephesians 5:22-33 where it says Christ is preparing the Church (his Bride) to be blameless without spot or wrinkle for what? The marriage supper which will come when Christ returns which if it's going to happen sooner than later would make sense that the Holy Spirit would want to emphasize Bridal Paradigm teaching right now.

    Revelation 22:1717 And the Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And let him who hears say, “Come!” And let him who thirsts come. Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely.

    The Spirit and who says come? Does it say the Church? Does it say the spirit and the Son's of God? Does it say the spirit and the believers say come? No it says the spirit and the Bride say come! My wife knows she is my wife it's very clear to her it's not mystical or confusing to her that she is my wife. The same way it shouldn't be so mystical for the Church to understand that she had been ordained from the beginning to be the bride of Christ hence why Paul References Genesis 2 in Ephesians 5:22-33 That statement was primarily meant to be understood that Jesus would leave his Fathers throne and be joined to his wife forever when he came to die for her on the earth.

    John 3:29 29 He who has the bride is the bridegroom; but the friend of the bridegroom, who stands and hears him, rejoices greatly because of the bridegroom’s voice. Therefore this joy of mine is fulfilled.

    John the Baptist sure didn't have a problem talking to the Church about the Bridegroom he understood very clearly Jesus as a bridegroom.

    We have already referenced Paul's clear understanding of the Bridal Paradigm that is confirmed in 2 Corinthians 2:11 For I am jealous for you with godly jealousy. For I have betrothed you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.

    What about Jesus Oh yes he referred to himself as the Bridegroom as well Matthew 9:15 And Jesus said to them, “Can the friends of the bridegroom mourn as long as the bridegroom is with them? But the days will come when the bridegroom will be taken away from them, and then they will fast.

    He also referred to the Kingdom of Heaven in the context of a King arranging a wedding for his Son I wonder what King and what Son Jesus was referring to in this parable?

    Intimacy with Jesus mystic romanticism? John 13:23,25 Now there was leaning on Jesus’ bosom one of His disciples, whom Jesus loved Then, leaning back[a] on Jesus’ breast, he said to Him, “Lord, who is it?”

    If leaning on Jesus' Breast (nearness to his heart) is good enough for John the Apostle it's good enough for me

    I have more to say but need to take a break for now.

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  25. Passionate For Jesus1/18/12, 5:27 PM

    More Bridal Paradigm

    Revelation 19:9 Then he said to me, “Write: ‘Blessed are those who are called to the marriage supper of the Lamb!’” And he said to me, “These are the true sayings of God.”

    Blessed are those who are called to the Marriage Supper of the Lamb? Is the Lamb getting married who is he getting married to? If it's to the Church don't you think that the Church should understand in a primary way that she is being prepared for a wedding and that she is in a primary way the Bride of Christ? How can she be the bride of Christ if she doesn't understand very cleary Bridal Paradigm Teaching also refer back to Ephesians 5:22-33 where it says Christ is preparing the Church (his Bride) to be blameless without spot or wrinkle for what? The marriage supper which will come when Christ returns which if it's going to happen sooner than later would make sense that the Holy Spirit would want to emphasize Bridal Paradigm teaching right now.

    Revelation 22:1717 And the Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And let him who hears say, “Come!” And let him who thirsts come. Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely.

    The Spirit and who says come? Does it say the Church? Does it say the spirit and the Son's of God? Does it say the spirit and the believers say come? No it says the spirit and the Bride say come! My wife knows she is my wife it's very clear to her it's not mystical or confusing to her that she is my wife. The same way it shouldn't be so mystical for the Church to understand that she had been ordained from the beginning to be the bride of Christ hence why Paul References Genesis 2 in Ephesians 5:22-33 That statement was primarily meant to be understood that Jesus would leave his Fathers throne and be joined to his wife forever when he came to die for her on the earth.

    John 3:29 29 He who has the bride is the bridegroom; but the friend of the bridegroom, who stands and hears him, rejoices greatly because of the bridegroom’s voice. Therefore this joy of mine is fulfilled.

    John the Baptist sure didn't have a problem talking to the Church about the Bridegroom he understood very clearly Jesus as a bridegroom.

    We have already referenced Paul's clear understanding of the Bridal Paradigm that is confirmed in 2 Corinthians 2:11 For I am jealous for you with godly jealousy. For I have betrothed you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.

    What about Jesus Oh yes he referred to himself as the Bridegroom as well Matthew 9:15 And Jesus said to them, “Can the friends of the bridegroom mourn as long as the bridegroom is with them? But the days will come when the bridegroom will be taken away from them, and then they will fast.

    He also referred to the Kingdom of Heaven in the context of a King arranging a wedding for his Son I wonder what King and what Son Jesus was referring to in this parable?

    Intimacy with Jesus mystic romanticism? John 13:23,25 Now there was leaning on Jesus’ bosom one of His disciples, whom Jesus loved Then, leaning back[a] on Jesus’ breast, he said to Him, “Lord, who is it?”

    If leaning on Jesus' Breast (nearness to his heart) is good enough for John the Apostle it's good enough for me

    I have more to say but need to take a break for now.

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  26. The Bridal Paradigm
    refuting of this teaching taken from portions of the book “Wandering Stars” by Keith Gibson; copyright 2011; Solid Ground Christian Books…(pgs 166 to 167)

    For those who might not be aware of this teaching, the bridal paradigm is the doctrinal position that the image of the Bride is the primary identity for the church, especially the church of this unique end-time generation. This generation will be the first to fully understand its identity as the Bride. This teaching has strong dominion theology undertones as there is a strong emphasis on the Bride co-reigning with Christ. Esther is seen as a type of end-time Church. (pg 166)

    The bridal paradigm becomes a grid, in a sense its own hermeneutic, through which all scripture is interpreted and through which all spiritual activity is engaged, hence, the Global Bridegroom fast, Bridal intercession, the cross in the bridal paradigm, etc. All of the scripture is seen as the relentless pursuit of the heavenly lovesick groom for the bride of His heart’s desire or the search of the Father for a bride for His Son who will be equally yoked to Him in love. (pg 166)

    The message truly stands the gospel on its ear. No longer is the emphasis on a God who is working for His own glory and displaying His majesty in redeeming a lostt and unworthy humanity. Now the story of redemption is on God seeking a suitable mate for His Son.. No longer is the cross seen primarily as the place where Jesus makes propitiation for our sin and satisfies the justice, holiness and wrath of God, or place redemption where the price is paid for our ransom, which is a picture the Bible uses. Now the cross is the dowry that is paid for the Bride, a statement that the Bible never makes. (Pg 167)

    …This teaching, while drawing upon a legitimate metaphor and the language of Scripture, pushes the metaphor beyond the boundaries of its proper understanding leading to an improper and unbiblical picture of Christ and His relationship to the Church. (bold emphasis mine)

    Tim

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  27. If leaning on Jesus' Breast (nearness to his heart) is good enough for John the Apostle it's good enough for me.

    More from "Wandeing Stars"

    In addition to an extreme allegorical approach to Song of Solomon… one of the primary attempts to justify this kind of language biblically is supposedly found in the apostle John. In his gospel, John relates the events at the Passover Meal many translations give the following rendering, love that love with

    ''Now there was leaning on Jesus' bosom one of His disciples, whom Jesus loved. Simon Peter therefore motioned to him to ask who it was of whom He spoke. Then, leaning back on Jesus' breast, he said to Him, 'Lord, who is it?"' John 13:23-25 (NKJV)

    This rendering of the text, coupled with an inadequate understanding of the historical context, lends itself to a false mental impression. Commenting on John, Bickle writes, "To be a man who lays his head on the Lord's breast and receives His embrace will set your heart ablaze."192

    Here Bickle commits an error based on an improper understanding of history. When men ate they reclined at the table, leaning on pillows. To be leaning on Jesus' breast meant to be the one directly in front of the Lord, who had to lean back to speak to him. Jesus and John were certainly in close proximity but they were not cuddling. They were not embracing. Consider the same text in a different translation.

    "One of the disciples. whom Jesus loved. was reclining at table close to Jesus. so Simon Peter motioned to him to ask Jesus of whom he was speaking. So that disciple, leaning back against Jesus, said to him. 'Lord. who is it?"' John 13:23-25 (ESV)

    Read in this way, the passage gives a much different picture, one that is more biblically and historically accurate but which of course would not allow Bickle to make his point

    The extent to which this concept can be distorted was demonstrated by a man in one of the prayer ministries who, when interviewed by the author, said that he spent about 30 minutes of his quiet time holding Jesus against his chest and about 30 minutes being held by Jesus with his head against the Lord's chest He was not joking and did not believe he was speaking metaphorically. (Pgs 165 - 166)

    Tim

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  28. More on the Bridal Paradigm… (taken from the book Wandering Stars)

    The first problem is the emphasis on the metaphor of the Bride to the exclusion of all other images used to describe the Church. Yes, the church is the Bride of Christ, but that is not all that is said of the Church. The Church is also called the Body (1 Cor. 12), the children of God (Eph 3:14, 1 Jn. 3 and others), an olive tree (Rom. 11), a field (1 Cor. 3:6-9), a temple (1Pet. 2:5), a royal priesthood (1 Pet. 2:9), a holy nation (1 Pet. 2:9), God's house (Heb. 3:6), the flock of God (1 Pet. 5:2), and an inheritance (Eph. 1:18). Each of these titles is meant to teach us some important truth concerning the people of God.

    The second issue is that, while it is true that the metaphor of the Bride is used for the church as a whole, this same metaphor is never used for the individual believer. This may seem minor at first but it is actually very significant. It is the entire church that is the Bride of Christ. Each believer is a part but is not the Bride.

    It would appear that many of the prophetic teachers either misunderstand this or choose to ignore it. Due to this confusion, many of the statements of the prophetic teachers cause Jesus to sound like our personal boyfriend instead of our Lord. Consider again the man who claimed that he held Jesus for the first 30 minutes of his quiet time and then had Jesus hold him for the last 30 minutes. Jesus is not your boyfriend or lover. It is inappropriate to consider Him in this way.

    A third issue with the Bridal Paradigm is that the statement is a metaphor. It is not a literal statement. The metaphor is meant to teach us the truth about God's love and commitment to us and our need for holiness and submission and yes, love for Him and a number of other things. But it is not meant to be literalized and physicalized (If that's not a word, it should be.)

    Literalizing the metaphor of the Bride can also create a good deal of gender tension among males. Andrew Strom is correct when he writes that this practice is effeminate at best Normal males in regular life are forced in prayer and worship to conceive of themselves in a feminine role. This is beyond the bounds of what the Scripture is teaching. Jonathon Rice ponders whether or not this might have some bearing on the rash of homosexual scandals within the Charismatic wing of the church. Only God knows for certain.

    But in addition to all of that, this emphasis of the Bridal paradigm seems to make subjective emotional feelings the height of spirituality. Yes, the first
    commandment is to love the Lord our God with all of our heart, soul, mind and strength. But this means far more than just some blush of emotion that we get while in prayer or worship. It is not difficult to work up an emotional state while attending a conference of any kind.

    The Bridal paradigm is just one more example of the prophetic community re-interpreting Christianity. It alters our view of God, the atonement, and the church. It sounds Biblical but it is not Biblical..

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  29. "The perpetuation of the idea that Apostles and Prophets with authority and power of the same order as the Apostles and Prophets of the N.T. is no where taught by the N.T." This is simply not so.

    "Here are some of the parts God has appointed for the church: first are apostles, second are prophets, third are teachers, then those who do miracles, those who have the gift of healing, those who can help others, those who have the gift of leadership, those who speak in unknown languages" (1 Cor. 12:28).

    In fact, Jesus, the greatest of the prophets, said, "I tell you the truth, anyone who believes in me will do the same works I have done, and even greater works, because I am going to be with the Father." (John 14:12)

    I think it is awesome what God is doing among young people at IHOP; I have met many who are passionately in love with Jesus, and honestly, this is something that is extremely lacking in main stream evangelical Christianity...where nearly 90% of the youth in churches are leaving when they turn 18. (Perhaps the question should be, "What is wrong in mainstream Christianity...that our young people are not captured by Jesus?) Perhaps they are recognizing the emptiness in their parent's religion and the lack of genuineness in pursuit of Christ.

    I have also been to IHOP and listened to many of the teachings, attended a conference, and listen to the webstream. To not recognize the heart of God in this place and accuse it of being a cult really makes me question your own heart. There were not any Scripture references given to denounce IHOP, only our personal belief, which is the very thing you are accusing IHOP of...being unbiblical in pursuit of one's own ideas. However, every teaching I have heard from IHOP is thoroughly backed up by Scripture.

    As far as the Bridal Paradigm, do you not at least find it significant that the very consummation of the ages will be summed up in the end with Jesus coming for His bride? (Revelation 21:9)

    The Spirit and the bride say, 'Come.' (Revelation 22:17)...you should join them...

    ...not fight them.

    What bride does not want the return of her bridegroom?

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  30. Stephen,

    Thak you for writing. Thye scripture you cited does not address the continuation of the Apostolic ministry today. I would reference this article from an organization that is not cessationist in nature.

    http://ag.org/top/Beliefs/Position_Papers/pp_downloads/pp_4195_apostles_prophets.pdf

    A more detailed presentation of this viewpoint is found in Wayne Grudem's "the Gift of propehcy in the New testament and today." Worth reading.

    As to the Bridal Paridigm, here is an article I wrote many years ago:

    http://beyondgrace.blogspot.com/2009/02/profane-bride.html

    I share your concern for the eternal destiny of those - youn and old- that are not soundly converted.

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  31. Paul listed eight kinds of members with special functions. This list differs somewhat from the one in verses 8-10 where he identified nine manifestations of the Spirit’s working. This list, as the former one, is selective rather than exhaustive.

    The ranking of these gifted individuals is evidently in the order of the importance of their ministries. When Paul said all the members were essential earlier (v. 21) he did not mean that some did not have a more crucial function to perform than others. He did not mention this distinction there because he wanted each member to appreciate the essential necessity of every other member. In another sense, however, some gifts are more important than others (v. 31; 14:1).

    God called and gifted the apostles to plant and to establish the church in places the gospel had not yet gone. Apostello means to send out, so it is proper to think of apostles as missionaries. Prophets were the channels through whom God sent His revelations to His people (cf. Eph. 2:20). Some of them also wrote the books of the New Testament. Teachers gave believers instruction in the Scriptures. Teachers were more important in the church than the prophets who simply gave words of edification, exhortation, and consolation (14:3), but they were less important than the prophets who gave new authoritative revelation. The latter type of prophet is in view in this verse.

    “. . . a scholar will learn more from a good teacher than he will from any book. We have books in plenty nowadays, but it is still true that it is through people that we really learn of Christ.”[340]

    Workers of miracles and healers gave dramatic proof that the power of God was working in the church so others would trust Christ. They may have ministered especially to the Jews since the Jews looked for such indications of God’s presence and blessing (cf. 1:22). Helpers seem to have provided assistance of various kinds for people in need. Administrators managed and directed the affairs of the churches. Tongues-speakers bring up the rear in this list as being the least important of those mentioned. Paul said more about their relative importance in chapter 14.

    “The shortness of the list of charismata in Eph. iv. II as compared with the list here is perhaps an indication that the regular exercise of extraordinary gifts in public worship was already dying out.”[341]

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  32. Jesus prefaced another startling and important revelation with His customary phrase that John noted often in his Gospel. He stressed the importance of believing what He revealed about His divine identity by unveiling the consequences of believing that He was the divine Messiah.

    The interpretation of the works that those who believe on Jesus would do, which commentators have found difficult, depends on how Jesus described them. He said that the basis for these and greater works would be His going to the Father. After Jesus ascended into heaven, the Father sent the Holy Spirit to indwell every believer (Acts 2:3; cf. Rom. 8:9; 1 Cor. 12:13). This divine enablement empowered believers to do miracles that only Jesus Himself could do previously. The Book of Acts records the apostles doing many of the same miracles that Jesus had done in the Gospels.

    The disciples would do even greater works than Jesus in the sense that their works would have greater effects than His works had. During Jesus’ earthly ministry relatively few people believed on Him, but after His ascension many more did. The miracle of regeneration multiplied after Jesus ascended to heaven and the Father sent the Holy Spirit. Three thousand people became believers in Jesus on the day of Pentecost alone (Acts 2:41). The church thoroughly permeated the Roman Empire during the apostolic age whereas Jesus’ personal ministry did not extend beyond Palestine. The whole Book of Acts is proof that what Jesus predicted here happened (cf. Acts 1:1-2, 8). The mighty works of conversion are more in view here than a few miracles of healing.

    Jesus probably did not mean that His disciples would do more stupendous miracles than He did. Feeding multitudes from a small lunch and raising people from the dead are hard miracles to supersede. We should not assume either that Jesus meant that these miracles would continue throughout church history as they existed in the apostolic era. Church history has shown that they died out almost entirely after the apostolic age, and the New Testament, while it does not specifically predict that, implies that they would (1 Cor. 13:8; Eph. 2:20; Heb. 2:3-4).

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  33. This is where I have an issue. 1 Cor 12:28 has nothing to do with the continuation of the office of Apostle as Bill F states.

    When read in context of the writings of Paul, it has a completely different meaning.

    I don't understand what gives people the right to take a sentence or two out of a paragraph or chapter in the scriptures so as to make it fit what they want.

    If (and I adress to Stephen) you were to write a book and in that book what you wrote was for a specific reason, topic, meaning teachings and then someone came along and took a part of that book and removed a sentence or two out and then stated something completely different than what you meant, would you be happy about that? Would you be pleased that someone took what you wrote and reinterpreted from what you meant?

    TJH

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  34. Paul said he was the last of the Apostles.

    Again, check out the A/G position paper; even if you don't agree you will know where I'm comin from.

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  35. Passionate For Jesus2/3/12, 9:24 AM

    None of the responses to my postings about the bridal paradigm are addressing all the scriptural references that the bible gives concerning this issue. So far all I see is someone using a book (wandering stars) with another persons opinion about the bridal paradigm.
    Again Paul says according to Ephesians 5:30-32 the scripture verse in Genesis 2:18 and 24 is really pertaining to the Church and Christ not a man and a woman in natural marriage though it does pertain to a man and woman in natural marriage that is not the primary emphasis.

    I love the Bridal Paradigm and Jesus is my Bridegroom and I do not view Jesus as my boyfriend I am married with Children and yet I understand that there is no one who can love me better than Jesus there is no one who understands me like Jesus he created love he administers it the best he created my heart and knows exactly what I need. He is magnificent and when I come into that place that John was in understanding that I am the one Jesus loves it liberates the heart.

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  36. Got it. Did you read this?

    http://beyondgrace.blogspot.com/2009/02/profane-bride.html

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  37. Passionate For Jesus2/3/12, 9:44 AM

    The Bride of Christ is not a metaphor it is a literal identity that is held by the Church and we will really attend a marriage supper with the lamb. Rev 19:9

    And just because I emphasize the bridal paradigm message doesn't mean I don't emphasize the reality that we are Children of God or the body of Christ. Us being the body of Christ only confirms the reality of the bridal paradigm because as Jesus' bride we become one flesh with him which is why we are called the body of Christ as the bride of Christ. If we weren't first the bride we couldn't then be the body. "The two shall become one flesh" and they only become that in context to marriage.

    We need to be emphasizing all the facets of the Character of Jesus if we want to come into greater knowledge of God. One of the reasons that Mike Bickle emphasizes the bridal paradigm is because very few do in the body of Christ not because he doesn't believe the other things about who we are as the Body of Christ.

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  38. Passionate For Jesus2/3/12, 9:59 AM

    Addressing the idea that we can't be the bride of Christ individually and corporately together would be like saying we can't be the body of Christ corporately and individually together.

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  39. Passionate For Jesus2/3/12, 10:42 AM

    On the Apostolic Ministry

    The term "Apostolic Age" is not a biblical term and it is a term that gives insinuation that there was only one apostolic timeframe in human history which Jesus doesn't give reference to.

    Furthermore everytime the bible refers to the gifts that God gave to the Church no where is there any sort of reference given that some of them end and others keep going. That is our own inference to our error and is part of the reason the body of Christ is powerless and looks nothing like the book of Acts especially in the west because we have diminished the biblical gifts God gave to the Church to bring it to fullness and maturity YOU CAN'T GET AROUND EPHESIANS 4:11-16 AND NOT SEE THE FACT THAT GOD GAVE FIVE FOLD MINISTRY TO BRING THE CHURCH TO FULLNESS AND IT WON'T HAPPEN UNTIL ALL 5 gifts function like they were in the book of Acts.

    Also the definition of Apostle according to what they accomplished in the bible is much more than just taking the gospel to unreached people groups ALL of Pauls letters contained in the N.T are brining Apostolic order to churches already planted. Aligning those churches with the reality of heaven. The reality of the gift and function of the Apostolic ministry when we look at it in the bible is much broader and those functions that they brought to the early Church we are missing now and it is part of the Churches problem.

    Paul's Apostolic ministry he defined also as authority and power. That is part of the Apostolic ministry authority backed up by the power of God. 1 Corinthians 2:4

    You can't do away with gifts that God gave to the Church for the Church to function they are gifts that he gave to the church he didn't take them away. The gifts and callings of God are irrevocable Romans 11:29

    Paul Said he was the least of all the Apostles not the last.

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  40. Passionate For Jesus2/3/12, 10:46 AM

    Paul said in Timothy that at the end of the age there would be perilous times and there would come a people who had a form of Godliness but deny it's power.

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  41. Passionate For Jesus2/3/12, 11:16 AM

    Does the term Son or Sons of God de-emphasize my wife's femininity?

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  42. Passionate For Jesus2/3/12, 11:25 AM

    What about the truth that there is no marriage in heaven Matthew 22:30? So does that mean once we enter into the age to come that the Song of Solomon becomes an irrelavant book of the bible if you believe there is no spiritual interpretation? Does that mean that God wrote the Song of Solomon only for this age with no deeper meaning behind the story of The Song of Solomon

    Or is there something that we are to see in the Song of Solomon that would help us to better understand what Paul said in Ephesians 5:30-32?

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  43. Actually PAssionate for Jesus, there are alot of scripture references in the post from the book The Wandering Star, who lives in the IHOP area and has attended and questioned and interviewed many there and the leaders. Did you just over look the UNDERLINED scripture references or would you like me to order the book that has done an excellent job of critiqing the whole teachings and send it to you?
    TH

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  44. Correct. We can't be the body of Christ individually.
    I'm glad you see this.

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  45. Paul not only said he was the least but also the last (pervious verse). The orthodox understanding of this passage is that having seen Jesus after the resurrection was one of the requisites for a foundational Apostolic ministry.

    This understanding comes from Acts 1:1-3, which speak of the Apostles that Jesus had chosen. The time frame of that passage is limited, and speaks of tha time that has passed.

    Paul, the least of the Apostles, was also the last to be commissioned by Jesus.

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  46. Passionate For Jesus2/4/12, 1:16 PM

    Actually the 2 or 3 posts from the book "wandering stars" that are signed with the name Tim at the end of it the scripture verese listed in those posts are not talking about any of the verses that I posted that refer to the bridal paradigm they are all scriptures that are listing references to where the Church is called something else like the body of christ, son's of God, house of God etc...

    No one on here has addressed personally what Paul said in Ephesians 5:30-32 That is quoting Genesis 2:18 and 24 we could start there.

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  47. Passionate For Jesus2/4/12, 1:24 PM

    The body of Christ is all individuals that make up the whole.

    Without individuals you can't have the body of Christ.

    It's not either or it's both and.

    Same way with the Bridal Paradigm. If I don't understand my personal identity as the Bride of Christ I won't be able to be a Bride corporately with the rest of the Church.

    In Matthew 22:12 there was a man who came into the wedding feast and he didn't have on a wedding garment and he was bound and cast into outer darkness.

    In his mind he didn't understand he was going to a wedding (Understanding of the Bridal Paradigm) so he wasn't properly prepared and couldn't enter in.

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  48. Passionate For Jesus2/4/12, 1:34 PM

    To William Fawcetts last comment about Paul

    The context of 1 Cor 15:8 Paul is not closing the cannon of Apostolic Ministry by saying he was the last in the line of everyone he listed to see Jesus.

    Paul wasn't an eyewitness of Jesus like the others who saw Jesus during the 40 days in Acts 1:3

    Jesus appeared to Paul from heaven above on Damascus road in a great white light. After he had ascended to heaven. He wasn't an eyewitness like Peter and the rest of the Apostles.

    Much like Jesus revealed himself to John on the island of Patmos which when understood in that proper context opens the door for other people to have encounters with Christ and have the same sort of Apostolic calling like Paul had.

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  49. p4j

    I'm not going to argue with scripture, or try to quantify the nature of the Lord's appearance to Paul. Rather I will take Paul at his word, when he lists the post-resurrection appearance of Jesus, and classifies his appearance in the same categeroy as the appearances to the other apostles.

    "then He appeared to James, then to all the apostles; and last of all, as to one untimely born, He appeared to me also."

    I could write a whole book on the foundational nature of the Apostle, how that the Apostle in the NT is equivelent to the Prophet in the OT; and how God used them to give us the canon of scripture, which is closed. Therefore the church is built on the FOUNDATION of the prophets and apostles. However, Wayne Grudem has already written such a book and I would highly recommend it if you want to gain an understanding of the viewpoint that I, and much of the church, subscribe to. The book is called the gift of prophecy.

    BTW, your thoughts on individual bodyship and brideship are just plain nuts, but I don't have the energy to argue that out. This is a rather old thread that you stumbled upon. At least you have been exposed to the thoughts of the orthodox body of Christ.

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  50. P4J,

    I'm fighting a bit of a cold and don't have a lot of energy for this discussion BUT I can understand your logical reasoned approach to individual brideship. However, I'm less concerned about your logic and more concerned about what the scriptures say. So if the NT understanding of the bride of Christ is an individual one, give me one scripture in the NT where that is explicitly stated, and we will take it from there.

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  51. Passionate for Jesus,

    You know, I think it might be helpful if you would take another look at that parable about the wedding feast that you spoke of. The person there that didn't have on a wedding garment was a guest at the wedding, not the bride. According to several sources that I have read, in the Jewish weddings of that time each guest that was invited to the wedding feast was given a special garment to wear.

    Note, this is NOT the bride but a guest. ONE bride only, not multiple, individual brides.

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  52. Passionate,

    You do realize, do you not, that if each individual Christian is a bride of Christ, you are making Jesus to be a polygamist?

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  53. Administrative Note- in response to this thread I recieved an anonymous comment containing a "prophetic dream" about me. All prophecies must be judged, and I do not receive anonymous prophecies from anyone identified only by screen name.

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  54. Passionate For Jesus2/10/12, 11:08 AM

    To Cheryl and William,

    Here is the point I am trying to make pertaining to the Bride of Christ a principle that you will see in the following scriptures pertaining to the body of Christ.

    In an earlier post I stated and we must understand that we can only be the body of Christ if we first are the bride of Christ because the only way we become part of Christs body is through the lens of becoming "One" with him by marriage. As seen in Ephesians 5:30-32 that is why the following scriptures help give us insight also into the bridal paradigm.

    Romans 12:5 so we, being many, are one body in Christ, and individually members of one another.

    1 Corinthians 12:11-14 11 But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually as He wills. 12 For as the body is one and has many members, but all the members of that one body, being many, are one body, so also is Christ. 13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into one Spirit. 14 For in fact the body is not one member but many.

    1 Corinthians 12:27 Now you are the body of Christ, and members individually.

    As we see in these verses there is a clear understanding of the corporate sense of the body of Christ as well as the individual truth of the reality.

    It's not one or the other it's both and.

    I mean we will for eternity be individuals while simultaneously being the bride and body of Christ just as we are now.

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  55. Passionate For Jesus2/10/12, 11:40 AM

    Cheryl

    Jesus is not a polygamist thats absurd when I talk about the individuality of the bride of Christ I am not saying that each one of us individually makes up the whole bride of Christ. But we have to have the the uderstanding and Identity as Jesus Bride individually.

    I am the body of Christ but not the fullness of it.

    When I say I am an American I don't mean I am the whole of America, but I understand my individual identity as an American.

    Just like when I say I am the bride of Christ I don't mean I am one of millions of brides that Jesus has. I am Jesus' bride along with the rest of every other believer in the world. But understanding my identity as Jesus' bride helps me to relate to him in intimacy not known by my identity as a Son of God. With no sexual overtones whatsoever.

    Jesus is the furthest thing from a polygamist as revealed in Hosea though Israel was unfaithful Jesus remained faithful. He said no longer call me master but call me Husband Hosea 2:16

    Bless You Cheryl

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  56. Passionate For Jesus2/10/12, 11:44 AM

    William

    One N.T verse for you that gives more insight.

    Revelation 19:9 Then he said to me, “Write: ‘Blessed are those who are called to the marriage supper of the Lamb!’” And he said to me, “These are the true sayings of God.”

    Those in this verse is referring to individuals people.

    Some people will be invited some won't.

    Bless You ALL Jesus Loves You!

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  57. >In an earlier post I stated and we must understand that we can only be the body of Christ if we first are the bride of Christ because the only way we become part of Christs body is through the lens of becoming "One" with him by marriage. As seen in Ephesians 5:30-32 that is why the following scriptures help give us insight also into the bridal paradigm.


    Interestingly, the oft-cited Ephesians says nothing about bride or bridgroom in relation to the church; rather it sets forth the Love of Christ for the church as an example for husbands and wives. You are reading too much into this.

    The way we become part of the church is getting saved, not getting one with Him by marriage.

    You've got it all wrong.

    The marriage supper of the Lamb HAS NOT YET HAPPENED.

    This all illustrates that the birdal paridigm, as taught by Mike Bickle, is a great convoluted scheme, and has many people convinced, but it won't stand up to biblical scrutinty.

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  58. P4J, you're mixing NT metaphors. The bride isn't invited to the marriage supper. It's the guests (e.g., friends of the bridegroom) who are invited. The key problem is that your interpretation of the NT takes as central and literal that which is merely a figure of speech intended to explicate certain abstract theological concepts. On your erroneous hermeneutic, it follows that God is a great bird since we can rest in the shadow of His wings.

    More to the immediate point, your central claim is unsubstantiated: "But we have to have the the uderstanding [sic] and Identity as Jesus Bride individually." Nothing in Scripture commands that we identify individually as a bride of Christ. You are substituting a mere tradition of man for what is written.

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  59. Passionate For Jesus2/11/12, 1:12 AM

    When we get saved we become sons of God, the bride of Christ we become part of his body all together.

    Epehsians 5:32 this is a great mystery but I speak concerning Christ and the Church.

    Everything Paul just talked about in relation to marriage and husbands and wives beginning in Ephesians 5:22 he says he was ultimately speaking concerning Christ and the Church.

    He refers to it as a great mystery meaning it needs to be spiritually discerned. There is more to it than meets the eye.

    It's ultimate point Paul says is not husbands and wives it's the union between Christ(Bridegroom) and Church(Bride)

    Paul even goes on in Ephesians 5:33 to say "nevertheless let each of you in particular so love his own wife as himself."

    Meaning in light of the fact that I just told you ultimately this context is about Christ and the Church let it still admonish you husbands to love their wife as himself.

    Definently not reading to much into something that Paul tells us we need to read more into it by calling it a mystery.

    Blessings to You William

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  60. Ok here we go- you are now referring to Ephesians 5 in this manner: Christ(Bridegroom) and Church (Bride). I will caution you that this passage makes no such reference.

    However, if we can see the church as the bride (we can- from other passages) then it is a quantum leap to seeing individuals as the bride. There is no basis for such a belief anywhere in scripture, so if you belive that , it comes from your imagination, or perhaps Mike Bickle's.

    If you believe that verse 32, which says "This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church," give you license to, as you say "read more into it" you may be in danger of adding to God's written word.

    Furthermore, God's word says that the "secret things" (mysteries) belong to Him. Not me. Not you.

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  61. Passionate for Jesus:

    I heard a sermon just this week by Chuck Swindoll which helps to put this in perspective. He was preaching from 1 Cor 12:12-26 and, using a device a former teacher showed him, he changed the word “parts” or “members” to organs. A spleen does not make a whole body. A heart does not make a whole body. A pancreas does not make a whole body. It takes each and every part of the body to make up the whole. So, we are each an individual part of the collective, corporate body of Christ.

    Each of us individually does not constitute the body yet, of course, each one is an integral part. Paul’s point is that we are all unified as one and we should work together as one with any one not being more or less important than another. And the unifying factor can only be the indwelling Holy Spirit common to all true believers. Obviously, this same principle applies to the metaphor of the bride of Christ.

    Furthermore, the body/bride is made up of all believers past, present and future including even those in the ‘faith hall of fame’ of Hebrews 11 rather than just an elite end times generation. The Marriage Supper of the Lamb will include all believers and will necessarily exclude all unbelievers. And, this Supper will occur after Jesus returns and not before.

    As Mr. Fawcett has stated, the Ephesians passage refers to Christian marriage. Many get tripped up on v 5:32, yet when one views 5:22-33 as a whole rather than proof-texting this one verse, it makes complete sense. The best commentary I’ve found on this is Peter O’Brien’s Pillar New Testament Commentary on The Letter to the Ephesians:

    http://www.christianbook.com/letter-ephesians-pillar-new-testament-commentary/peter-obrien/9780802837363/pd/37361?product_redirect=1&Ntt=37361&item_code=&Ntk=keywords&event=ESRCP

    O’Brien takes 28 pages to explain this pericope. In verse 26, after explaining grammatical and syntactical issues he states, “…It is best, then, to understand the participle [cleansing] as denoting the means by which the action of the main verb [make her holy] was accomplished. Christ died for the church to ‘make her holy by cleansing her’ (NRSV). Cleansing points to removal of sin [ED: justification], while sanctification focuses on being set apart to God. To use systematic theological categories, it is positional or definitive sanctification that is in view here, not progressive sanctification. The cleansing was effected ‘by the washing of the water through the word…” (‘washing’ = “spiritual cleansing…by Christ”) [p 422, emphasis added]

    In other words, in this passage Paul’s point is that it’s a done deal upon salvation which then means that verse 27 does not point to a future perfection of the bride by and of herself, “…Paul goes out of his way to emphasize that it is Christ who will present the church to himself – not the friend of the bridegroom, nor the bride herself. He has done everything necessary to achieve this goal.” [p 424]

    [cont]

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  62. [cont]

    When Paul uses the word “mystery” he mostly uses it as an apologetic against the mystery religions of the time re-appropriating the term for his own theological ends. His usage is as a former ‘mystery’ now revealed. So, in verse 32, “…The mystery is not any particular marriage or marriage itself; it is the union of Christ and the church which is reflected in a truly Christian marriage. Such a mystery is indeed ‘profound’.” [p 434]

    O’Brien continues, ”A Christian marriage, as envisaged in this paragraph, is ‘to reveal the mystery of Christ loving his responsive church’. Such a marriage bears living witness to the meaning of ‘two becoming one’…And through it all, the mystery of the gospel is unveiled…”

    The Israel as bride of God in Hosea is a motif continued in the NT as the Church being the bride of Christ; however, it’s a topology, a metaphor that should not be taken too far yet sadly is by too many.

    I hope this helps put Ephesians 5:22-33 in proper perspective.

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  63. Passionate for Jesus,

    You spoke of Revelation 19 and the bride there. Did you not notice that again the bride is spoken of as a collective, yet made up of individuals? No one person here is referred to as the bride. Bride is singular--not a multitude of individual brides and "she has made herself ready", again a singular bride. It doesn't say that "they" have made themselves ready. Those that are blessed to be called to the marraige supper are part of the corporate bride. As others have said, to read each individual Christian as a bride by themselves is simply not something found in the New Testament. It may have been taught to you as such, but I think if you take an honest look again, you will find that simply is not the case.

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  64. Here’s more on Ephesians 5:22-33:

    In The Expositor’s Bible Commentary [Tremper Longman III & David E. Garland, Ephesians~Philemon, Vol 12, Revised , 2006, Zondervan] William W. Klein’s commentary on Ephesians explains, like O’Brien, that in verse 5:32 the word mystery [from Greek transliterated mysterion] is “the revelation of that which was hidden” going beyond what was commonly thought in Genesis 2:24. Klein illustrates that the point Paul makes is how the relationship between a husband and wife should approach the way in which Christ loves the Church.

    Paul has “shed light on the ways in which a human marriage and Christ’s union with the church are analogous – how they mutually inform our understanding of both.” It helps us understand just what “one flesh” means in the context of the Christian marriage. “We see more clearly how the church needs to submit to Christ as Lord.” This then should frame our view of the marriage relationship.

    ”We also gain insight into the tragedy that transpired when Israel left Yahweh for other gods, and why Yahweh likened this defection to adultery and prostitution. To understand the character of that abandonment opens our eyes in some measure to the tragedy of marital unfaithfulness or of a divorce of a Christian couple. If husband and wife are ‘one flesh’, what tragic division a divorce entails, as though Christ would abandon his church for another…or as though the church could survive on its own without him! …Or how sad it is when even Christian wives deny any significance to Paul’s appeal that they submit to their husbands – as though the church no longer needs to submit to Christ. And how sad that many Christians husbands take such an erroneous patriarchal stance that they force their wives to submit…rather than to exert every effort to love their wives… [p 154]

    In sum: the focus is on Christian marriage by comparing it to how Christ sacrificed Himself, in love, for the Church [v 25]; and, consequently, with this in mind, we should continue to serve Him [v 24, 29-30] and not ‘other gods’ (including self) [v 31-33] in part by maintaining the sanctity of the Christian marriage relationship through mutual submission. This passage does not support a mystical “Bridal Paradigm” teaching (which Bickle claims is a ‘new revelation’) unless one reads into it [eisegesis rather than exegesis]. Mike Bickle has the emphasis backwards.

    The “nevertheless” (or “however”) which begins verse 33 is thereby because verse 32 diverges a bit from the main thrust of Paul’s argumentation; so, this brings it to a summary of the main points of this passage. ”In this way, the writer reminds his readers that the exalted depiction of marriage in light of the relationship of Christ and the Church is meant to serve the purpose of practical exhortation” [Andrew T. Lincoln Word Biblical Commentary: Ephesians, 1990, Word Books Publisher, Dallas, TX; p 384]

    Jesus is referred to in Scripture as the Bridegroom with Church as bride. However, Jesus is also referred to as the Good Shepherd while we are the sheep (who are easily led astray). Jesus is the Head of the body [in fact, right there in Eph 5:23]. He is Lord/Master and we are His bond servants. These are all illustrations, figures of speech, which should not be taken beyond Scriptural intent. When one of these is given undue emphasis, error is the result.

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  65. Passionate For Jesus2/14/12, 2:08 PM

    Cheryl

    I am going to repost something that I wrote to you on 2/10/12because in your most recent post it doesn't sound like you read what I wrote on 2/10/12..

    Passionate For Jesus said...
    Cheryl

    Jesus is not a polygamist thats absurd when I talk about the individuality of the bride of Christ I am not saying that each one of us individually makes up the whole bride of Christ. But we have to have the the uderstanding and Identity as Jesus Bride individually.

    I am the body of Christ but not the fullness of it.

    When I say I am an American I don't mean I am the whole of America, but I understand my individual identity as an American.

    Just like when I say I am the bride of Christ I don't mean I am one of millions of brides that Jesus has. I am Jesus' bride along with the rest of every other believer in the world. But understanding my identity as Jesus' bride helps me to relate to him in intimacy not known by my identity as a Son of God. With no sexual overtones whatsoever.

    Jesus is the furthest thing from a polygamist as revealed in Hosea though Israel was unfaithful Jesus remained faithful. He said no longer call me master but call me Husband Hosea 2:16

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  66. Passionate For Jesus2/14/12, 2:41 PM

    Craig

    From your 2 posts I appreciate some of your insights but I want to clarify because it seems you are infering that I believe only an end-time generation will make up the bride of Christ I do not believe that.

    I also understand that the marriage supper of the lamb happens after the return of Christ I am not trying to argue something different.

    On Ephesians 5 we are going to have to agree to disagree on this post.

    Paul states very clearly the verses in Genesis 2:18 and 24 that he references up to the time of his writing were believed to be only about Adam and Eve and then natural marriage he says I tell you a mystery those verses were always pointing to something bigger than natural marriage they were pointing to Christ and the Church.

    He says and I quote "I speak concerning Christ and the Church" end quote Beloved brethren let us reason together when Paul tells us plainly in the passage itself what he is speaking concerning we need not make it harder than it is. Does the passage still apply to natural marriage YES it does I'm not trying to do away with that.

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  67. Passionate For Jesus2/14/12, 3:43 PM

    Throughout the N.T God's servants were under the revelation that they were friends of the Bridegroom which meant they were working to prepare the bride for marriage to the bridegroom.

    John understood his role John 3:29

    Jesus told his disciples Matthew 9:15 that they were friends of the bridegroom.

    Paul in 2 Corinthians 11:2 knew he was preparing a bride for Christ as well.

    This idea of friends of the bridegroom and the historical Jewish context that it was spoken in are rich with understanding.

    These great men of God in the bible were all working off the same idea from the Holy Spirit and from Jesus that they were preparing a bride for Jesus.

    I would encourage you to go to studylight.org and go to commentaries and select Adam Clarkes Commentaries and then go to book of John 3rd chapter and then read his discourse at the end of chapter 3 about the topic of friends of the bridegroom and it gives insight into the whole idea of friends of the bridegroom and where John and Paul were coming from.

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  68. Passionate for Jesus2/14/12, 3:54 PM

    You can't prepare a bride without the bride knowing that she is the bride.

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  69. Passionate For Jesus2/14/12, 4:11 PM

    I have a question.

    So do you believe that we as Christians are not supposed to be able to look at human marriage and then derive any understanding from human natural marriage of what that means to our personal relationship with Jesus?

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  70. You've got it exactly wrong.

    Actually I think one would be one more solid ground to look at the love Christ has for the church as a model for how husbands should love their wives.

    "Husbands, love your wives just as Christ loved the church and gave himself for her."

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  71. Passionate for Jesus,

    You can disregard the words of NT scholars on the Ephesians passage all of whom have Phds if you like and stick with Bickle instead. I’ll stay on the side of proper exegesis.

    You quote 2 Corinthians 11:2, yet don’t you see Paul is speaking metaphorically as Paul is making himself the bride’s father giving her away to Christ? How can that be exactly? The answer is found in 2 Corinthians 11:3-6 in which Paul is warning about false teachings and teachers. The point then is that Paul promised Christ he would continue to lead the Corinthian church so that they’d all be saved continuing in the Truth and consequently be part of the collective bride of Christ. Here Paul fears they will be led astray by the “false apostles” instead [2 Cor 11:13].

    You wrote, “I want to clarify because it seems you are infering that I believe only an end-time generation will make up the bride of Christ I do not believe that.

    So, then you don’t fully adhere to Bickle’s teaching. Bickle states that Jesus is returning for a perfect bride, one who is equal to Christ. Yet, then you must concede that we all make up a part of the collective bride/body of Christ – not individual brides or bodies, but individual parts of the greater whole. The binding factor is the indwelling Spirit.

    Earlier you wrote, “What about the truth that there is no marriage in heaven Matthew 22:30? So does that mean once we enter into the age to come that the Song of Solomon becomes an irrelavant book of the bible if you believe there is no spiritual interpretation? Does that mean that God wrote the Song of Solomon only for this age with no deeper meaning behind the story of The Song of Solomon

    This is a straw man. There’s also no Red Sea in heaven, no Mount of Olives, etc either. All the historical events of the Bible and even the entirety of history of our temporal existence in general will be, well, history. Cannot marriage be the same?

    You also quoted John 14:12. Do you really believe we’ll do greater signs and wonders than Jesus? Here’s the real meaning of the passage:

    http://notunlikelee.wordpress.com/2011/12/17/greater-works-shall-you-do/

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  72. It's sad that various blogs like this one take an "all or nothing" approach to criticisms of churches & ministries. Consider the early chapters of Revelation. Jesus Himself, the Bridegroom, through the pen of John, both praises and has criticism for most of the 7 churches (from memory I believe only 2 churches don't receive some kind of rebuke).

    I live in Kansas City, and frequent IHOP on occasion. Some of the negatives I see- 1. Yes, a bit of an elitist spirit...likely sprouted from some of the "super apostle/prophet" blurbs Mike said...but it is a spirit that not all that gather there possess. 2. A lack of discernment of spirits. The Holy Spirit moves, and moves some to manifest, but human spirits and demons also move and "imitate" the Holy Spirit. Mike (and staff) let a lot of that go on because they don't want to cut off the genuine...I think they could use some more discernment and discipline there, but THANK GOD there's still a church where the Spirit moves! 3. Ties to questionable "prophets". Yep, it casts an ugly mark on Mike & IHOP's ministry, but in the teachings I've heard him give of late, I hear no allusions to these men.

    All this being said, there is also great fruit coming out of IHOP. The emphasis is on the heart of God, seeking God's face, entering into His presence, etc (unlike much of the church which is content to just give intellectual assent to the attributes of the Most High).

    The music is absolutely anointed, & the congregation actually moves in the gifts and power of the Spirit (deliverance, healing, prophesy, etc), unlike MANY heretic cessationistic groups that call themselves the church (many of the reformed and baptist ilk). A criticism on these guys, many of whom ascribe to heretical Calvinism, would be just as lengthy in my estimation as a fair critique of the so-called charismatic arm of the church.

    Come on brothers and sisters...we need to get back to our bibles. The Lord has called us to know the scriptures, to believe, to repent, to adhere to sound teaching, to live out lives full of holiness, to walk in the authority of Christ (which includes casting out demons), to walk in the gifts of the spirit (teaching, tongues, interpretation, prophesy, healing, miracles, etc etc). We need to be speaking out against heresies like denominationalism, against cessationism, against the approval of homosexuality in the church. We need to stand for truth. We need to teach the resurrection of the body. We need to affirm the power of God in the life of the belief. We need to affirm the warfare, that Satan is NOT in hell, but rather on the earth, he and his demons, and that modernism and materialism has deceived those in the church to his machinations.

    What good is proper theology if we can't cast out an evil spirit? what good is proper theology if we can't war victoriously against the devil? What good is proper theology if we can't enter into the very Presence of the Most High, to gaze on His glory and be transformed?

    We need to repent of our dead religious spirit (active in the "stiff" reformed circles) just as we need to repent of "fast and loose" theology present in charismatic/Pentecostal circles. Paul himself, a man like us, was strong on proper doctrine, but also walked in holiness and prophesied and healed and cast out demons and spoke in tongues. The normal Christian life is the whole kit-and-caboodle. :)

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  73. Hi, let me give you some background on myself; I was with IHOP, on staff for over 3 1/2 years. I have had personal relationships with Mike Bickle, David Sliker etc, and relationships with leadership and staff at other HOPs across the country and Europe I've been involved with 'The Burn' and various other groups (Morningstar, ZHOP etc)). I was an outspoken apologist for IHOP.
    I'll start by saying, the article is on spot. Yes, it is encouraged to 'fast' from your family, particularly if they don't agree with IHOP. The many teachings of IHOP do not stand up to scriptural scrutiny. 1. Huge worldwide endtime revival -the scripture says there will be a great falling away and aspostacy.
    2. New apostles coming in? -Paul said he was the last apostle, and in reading early 2nd century church literature it seems that was the belief of the primitive church as well.
    3. Overcoming super elite christians taking over the socio-political-economical 'kingdoms' of this world or Jesus can't come back? _Jesus tells us that his kingdom is not of this world, we are told we are in this world and not of it, if they persecuted ME they will persecute you, etc etc.
    4. Joel's Army, endtime army of the elite who are going to execute God's judgement on the world -Joels's army was an army of FORIEGN INVADERS (pagans, gentiles, unbelievers) that God sends against His disobedient people, not the other way around.
    5. Praying to 'release' God's judgements on the earth (the teaching is that IHOPpers WON'T be persecuted in tribulation, but actually will pray 24/7 so God will allow them to 'release' and execute the judgements themselves -Scripture says it is GOD ALONE who decides and commands HIS ANGELS to execute the judgments after Jesus, the ONLY one WORTHY enough, breaks the seals on the scrolls.
    All of this is unbiblical heresy.
    I'm just going to hit on these few above, since it has been gone over and over again.

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  74. You see, you can't argue with an IHOPper, I was one, I still see and talk with people who are on staff or attend on a DAILY basis. It is a STRONG DELUSION. I was just like passionforjesus, you couldn't argue with me either. But I can tell you this, this "passion" is simply that, an emotion. It is brought on by heavily rhythmic and misynchopated music, combined with chanting (what are called chorus')basically working yourself up into an intense emotional state. That's what it is, getting all worked up. I see these thousands of young people (I staffed onething and the call) all pumped up, from external sources, not an internal change. As a musician, I know how to control a crowd's mood by the tempo, even the chord progression. Music speaks directly to the emotion, bypassing critical thinking. Mike can say all day long how he values and encourages critical thinking, but the atmosphere makes it very nearly impossible.Compound this with forced fasting, and it is forced, As a staff REQUIREMENT, there is a weekly day of fasting, the monthly 3 day GBF. Also 'special' fasts that last a week or more. Plus competiton on who can fast the most or longer. Then Mike tells you exactly how you should interpret the scripture, what books you MUST read, there is NO room to critcally analyze what you have been taught.
    It sure feels like it though.

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  75. You can imagine all day long you are making your own decisions rather than being led along. You can imagine that you make a coherent argument from scripture, when most of your ideas come from outside of scripture. You can imagine that this huge rush you are feeling is the presence of God, when it's only a worked up, high emotional state. You can imagine that the manifestations in the 'prayer room' are the Holy Spirit, when they are CLEARLY demonic and have parallels in scripture to prove them as such.
    There is no preaching on sin and repentance, although this is what Jesus told us to do; go into all the world. Not to spend 40 hours a week practicing transcendental meditation and going to staff meetings, and chanting out chorus'.
    What goes on in the 'prayer room' for the most part isn't actually prayer. I don't doubt anyone's sincerity, I was for sure sincere. But when you work up your emotions and attempt to 'work up' the presence of God, there is no room for the Holy Spirit to move. Jesus said; it is an evil generation that seeks for a sign. When you go out seeking signs and wonders, you WILL get them, rest assured, but they WON'T be from God.
    Just a few more thoughts, when you build on a foundation other than Jesus your buildoing will fall and as Jesus said; great will be it's fall. So as some apologists have said that people make mistakes...The 'prophetic' foundations that Mike is espousing, were from proven false prophets, this bears consideration, IHOP has a faulty foundation.
    Examine the fruit of IHOP, there is none, save for broken families, disallusionment, young people dropping out of college to go 'be with Jesus' and living like catholic monks in crowded apartments, begging people to support their non-biblical 'intercessory missionary' lifestyle. When we would talk and sing about 'wasting our lives', it was and is exactly that, a waste.
    How many of these folks have actually had an authentic salvation, God alone knows.
    If their were fruit, you would see the communities around the HOPs changing, you would see crime going down, bars and porn shops closing. The poor and sick tended to, the jails emptying out, but you don't. So where is this big move of God? There is just no fruit. You have a bunch of people all 'passionate' for Jesus, so if this is true, why are there not less and less people in the prayer rom and more people out on the street preaching the Good News to a lost and dieing world, after all, the end is near, isn't it God's heart to see that no one perish?
    I am not talking about 1 week mission trips where people go and preach IHOP doctrine rather than the Gospel.
    I am speaking from personal experience, deeply involved in IHOP. This is the real scoop. Even a new teaching coming out is that the temple will be rebuilt in Jerusalem and IHOPpers will be temple guards and are training in martial arts. That it is OK to KILL fully demonized people! This is serious and it is dangerous.
    If you have kids in IHOP, stop supporting them, don't help them remain there. Pray for them, do what ever it takes to get them out

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  76. Goloni,

    Thanks so much for your confirmation as to how these hyper- charismatic ministries go way beyond the biblical confines of where we are supposed to be in Christ. I pray your testimony will reach those who need to understand where we are going away beyond the Bible.

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  77. To Mr. Goloni;

    I am the author of the article IHOP, the perils of passion and I want to thank you for your courageous words.

    It would be very beneficial if you and I could talk. I think its important to allow these stories of people's actual inside experience to be told with careful attention to detail and to the specific ways in which these aberrant teachings get fleshed out in actual day to day IHOP life.

    The foundation of IHOP is rotten, so inevitably it will fail - as it has in its previous incarnations - KCF, and Metro Vineyard. The great tragedy is the young hearts and minds twisted by false teaching and the expectation of a hyper-spirituality which cannot be lived outside the bubble of IHOP...

    If your open to directly corresponding I would be very grateful. But either way - I pray that God surrounds you with stable, godly pastoral care and a faithful band of brothers who will help walk you through to a better place.

    Scott

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  78. You may contact me at fawcetwd@gmail.com and I will put you in touch with Scott. I too appreciate your comments; they are very helpful.

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  79. I have been to IHOP on a number of occasions and have listened to a few of Mike Bickle's teaching series. The main "take away" for my husband and I has been a deeper understanding of God's love for us, and His desire to be close to our hearts as a Bridegroom and a Father.

    Having connected to this ministry has encouraged me to live a simpler lifestyle and to spend more time on prayer and worship and to remember that this world is not the end all, but that our focus should be on doing the work Christ has called us to in the earth, while longing for His return when that day comes.

    I have looked at a lot of the research and would make no claims that there is perfection in the ministry, but in my own life, God has used it to draw me closer to God and to read the Word and pray and minister love and kindness to others.a

    I do try to look and see the heart...and as far as Mike Bickle goes, his heart truly does seem to be towards loving the Lord, devotion to the word and prayer and sharing life with other believers, despite other mistakes he may have made in the past or associations with people who may be in error.

    I encourage all to pray that God will shine the light of truth in any places of darkness so that this good ministry of prayer and worship will increase, rather than be brought down.

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  80. Golani,


    We have heard most of this information before the new thing about the Zadok priesthood, which is to completely new to me.

    Can you expand upon that about IHOP?

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  81. Golani,

    We have heard most of this information before the new thing about you mentioned the Zadok priesthood, which is to completely new to me.

    Can you expand upon that about IHOP?

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  82. The whole bridal paradigm thing is sickening.

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  83. I can be reached at my blog http://jojahpine.wordpress.com/
    mbaker and Scott, thanks for the kind words. Unfortunately, I can't agree with your (Scott) stance of this thing falling down, The KCP and Metro Vineyard were confined to Kansas City. Yet this 'prayer' movement, (which has little to do with biblical prayer) has broken out worldwide, take Prague or Johannesburg for example, the group 24/7 has been running in the UK and even Spain for years now. I know, it will EVNTUALLY fall and fail. But right now, it is deceiving millions, mostly maleable, inexperienced youth.
    As for the Zadok Priesthood, just a little bit of scripture twisting add a generous helping of unrelated conclusions, mix thouroughly in an unrenewed mind, put it in the oven and take it out when it's half-baked - and there you have it. I will be addressing this soon on my blog as I find the time, and folks time is getting short.

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  84. Golani,

    There is one thing concerns me about your testimony. I read your website on Joel's Army and now I am asking if Atlanta-IHOP is rogue or not? I lived there for a great many years so am curious.

    I certainly don't discount what you are saying regarding that aspect of your testimony. given the long standing Joel's army teaching. Howeverit doesn't seem to me so far at least from I heard from this one website that we have enough verifable information regarding physical manifestation that it is a widespread movement from the over all hierarchy of IHOP and its connection to Mike Bickle that is taking place.

    Can you provide more information?

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  85. First off, Mike, Billy and Kirk are all connected, there is evidence all over their respective websites to establish that. They are all connected with all of the smaller IHOPs, they teach at them for instance. Atlanta has been holding several leadership conferences, training people to start new IHOPs, they are that big. I don't think Atlanta has gone rogue. There are some rogue HOPs out there, not connected to the mother ship in KC. Still, even these litttle ones get their teaching and ideas and modify them to fit their own circumstance. As for the martial arts classes, Atlanta, has them, I do not know if other IHOPs have them or are even aware of them. But as for KC and Zhop, they are too closely connected to be unaware of this. You will notice that there is no link Atlanta website or mention of it. Now look at this site- http://www.vigilantgate.com/p/what-is-shar-shaqed.html - This is taking place on ATL's campus, all the folks in the pictures are IHOP staff or family, the blond kid in the video is the administrators son, the smiling kid in the Daniel academy photo is the director Billy Humphry's son. The instructor is Chad Swift an senior staffer, section leader and FSM teacher. It's at IHOP (link to secondary location, a gym about 4 miles away comes back null), taught by a staff member and pouplated with Ihoppers, but it is NOT EVEN MENTIONED on the ATL site. It is not being 'openly' promoted, I didn't know about the site until someone sent it to me. Read the blogs there, they are horrifying. He equates 'buy a sword' to get a carry permit and buy a gun. I can't say this enough, it's been at IHOP for 2?3? years now and it is not on the official website, WHY?

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  86. Chad,

    Thanks for the updated info.

    I am wondering if you still have close enough alliances with KC-IHOP that someone there could give you an answer as to your question of why . I think we would all like to know.

    After reading that vigilante gate website, which I too found very alarming, I am wondering if other 'martial arts' studios of this same militant genre are planned in other IHOP locations.

    Without more specific details on that it is hard to know what to think at this point regarding this particular aspect of killing 'demonized' people that you mentioned in a comment on your website actually being taught in private by IHOP staff. That is certainly a very serious charge, and if some verifiable proof can be brought that it is the case then we will have something more substantial to go on to bring this potentially dangerous trend to people's attention.

    I think that would go further in discouraging parents to send their kids to IHOP in the first place, not to mention warning the public at large.

    So we would appreciate any more digging you can do.

    Thanks.

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  87. Well, I am still digging. Chad taught a class called "The New Covenant Priesthood" here's a link - https://registration.ihop-atlanta.com/registration.php?mode=entry&event_id=152 not sure if it was recorded, but there are probably notes to go with it. Somebody has them. One of the topics was 'the warrior priest'. All I can say is; this is not how we have learned Christ

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  88. Chad Golani,

    That link is now closed. What can you as insider tell us more? Did you save anything that would be releavant?

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  89. Chad Golani7/2/12, 1:20 PM

    I did not go to that class, I don't have the materials, but they do exist, I'll try to get them

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  90. To William, Let me first say that I was a child in the 80's and attented KCF then full faith church of love, then IHOP, Ive always known I was on a journey to discover what it was that happened in my church at that time.
    The only fact I give relevance to is myself and the fear and confussion of spirituality I have as a result of my exposure to Bikle, Jones, and Cain.
    I went to Ihop unaware of its roots.
    As we all post and argue the scecifics of the scripture, its apparent that we dont know, we are not anonymous, we are all victims.
    I would love to think someone out there is on this same journey if so shawn35null@twitter
    There is know question that IHOP is a dangerous cult, the sheep that attend are lucky if they speak english, arriving via religious visa, for those that do speak english and hear Mike when he preachesI feel sorry for you
    below is the bio about my twitter hashtag #kcfalseprophets
    I would love to hear from someone from the past.

    sorry for the runons and misspelling( you bloggers are uptight)

    #kcfalseprophets
    shawn
    Biography
    I support the movement known as “Anonymous”.
    My goal is to expose the false prophets of the Kansas City Evangelical Christian movement.
    Why? I grew up in a cult/neighborhood church in the late 80′s. The men (false prophets) of the church are all but ONE dead; unfortunately the remaining member of “kansas city fellowship” has started another cult, and it is big million dollar big(a year).
    This “church” called Ihop (not the pancake house) the International House Of Prayer or their new one kc forerunner fellowship.
    Why not just leave them alone? I cant.
    The key word here is “International”
    This is how the founder and current pastor M.B. funds this Doomsday cult of martyr’s.
    90% of the members are in their twenties, and they think their training to be missionaries, but the “end times” have been prophesied by the pastor.
    Fear, immigrant small business loans, lies and religious visas are the tools of the new face of Christianity. This movement has roots in almost every church in America. Know a false prophet? You can trace him back to “Kansas City Prophets”
    Now for the good parts, Number one sign of a cult- Isolationism, the members have been instructed to unplug all media outlets(maybe the 500, 000 post on Google haunt him, but he doesn’t have to worry.
    This is how it works, he calls his church a missions school, so internationally anybody can get a religious visa from almost any country as long as they have an institute to accept them (IHOP) then when they arrive here usually with nothing but belief until M.B. helps them all get the small business loan for their new business “A Missionary”
    Conveniently a semester of bible thumping cost the same amount as the basic loan, once they give it to the church there broke hungry and immobile so they have to rely on the church. This is how over 50, 000 young adults are living right now right here.
    They are also linked to “The Promise Keepers” I know it was once a simple movement with a good promise, all men called to treat their families better, now they have 500, 000 men that don’t know the promise has changed.
    Promise Keepers is now basically “IHOPS” personal sleeper cell.
    Why should you care? This man “Mike Bikle” will unite his forerunners(martyr’s) will Islamic Jihad and bring it to our shores.
    He is trying to force the sky open and bring “armagedon” in nuclear war only the 1% survive.
    I don’t hate God or Christians, but I knew this man was a fraud since I was 10.

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  91. 10.
    This cult is very dangerous if you Google it you’ll see, if you go to their service which I recommend, you will find great rock music 24 hour “Healing Rooms” but please don’t drink the kool-aid just listen. We need to expose this man to his followers, one thing young adults cant do is turn of their smartphone so twitter could stop a war, one that nobody but jihadist are talking about, until 1999 when he had his 10th vision in 10 years. He sees himself as the right hand of Jesus and possesses “The Holy Gost”
    We must stop this please Google this and read about the families turned and destroyed, mothers posting on Google about their child no longer caring about them and feeling superior.
    Ihop members, this is to YOU, I know Bikle better than anyone in that church and he will lead you to death not the rapture.
    its in Grandview MO 2 miles west of 71 off red bridge rode its on a hill on the left in a strip mall, don’t be fooled they own 3 square miles of Grandview and used criminal tactics to buy out all the nearby businesses.
    It was allegedly a vision of the physical manifestation of Christ who gave him the Idea, that’s a lie it wasn’t his idea. The real missionaries I knew left in 1988 because of this, they went to Guatemala built a school and hospital all from donations and the’re still there and still poor and still good people.
    This man caused the end of my church when I was 11 then I was thrown into larger cults, then I rebelled HARD. The one Pastor that ousted him died in 2009 his name was Ernie Gruen, but he was a smart man, he wrote an in depth report titled “the abbreverant practices of KC Fellowship”.
    His son is still standing up for his dad.
    I intend to start where Ernie Gruen left off
    Twitter Username
    @shawn35null
    below is a video about mike bikles current open vision for America.
    YOU DECIDE
    nullacide.tumblr.com
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=eLZpsepaVcM

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  92. I was on staff at IHOP in 2008 and 2009. I was involved in teaching married couples how to have better marriages and walk in the Spirit together. I became concerned when I encountered several couples who were in the prayer room and they were not living in the same household. In other words, married couples were separated and in the prayer room, their children were running back and forth between mom and dad (in the prayer room). I brought these concerns to leadership and suggested that there be an intervention to bring about restitution in the lives of these couples since their separation was having a negative impact on the children and that division in the marriage relationship hinders our prayers (1 Peter 3:7). Also, marriage is a shadow or image of what is coming... "Marriage supper of the Lamb."... I suggested that the couples suspend their prayer room status and reconcile, then return to the prayer room. I was summarily rebuked and forbidden to suggest any such limitations on prayer room activity... "It's not like there is a scripture that states God doesn't hear our prayers when couples are not in unity." Is what I was told. I disagreed and was told that I would no longer be able to lead or teach in any capacity. I asked the leader... "Do we want a prayer room full of immoral people that God isn't hearing or do we want a prayer room full of consecrated people, striving to live righteous lives? I was again told that there cannot be any restrictions on who prays because (inferred) God hears all of us no matter how we are living our lives.

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  93. Dear "Anonymous".....I think you need to do some praying yourself and think about what you just said. Just because a couple is going through a hard time in their marriage, doesn't mean that they are anymore immoral than you!! We are all sinners!!! Did Jesus not go sit and eat with the sinners?? Who did Jesus spend most of his time with??? Sinners!! I am living proof that God can redeem any situation and does HEAR our prayers!! I may not aggree with the teaching and practices of IHOP, but am glad that they had you step away from leadership. You are not called to judge, but to love.

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  94. LET,S GET IT STRAIGHT IHOP IS OF THE WALL, AND IS VERY DANGEROUS...2 TIMOTHY 4.1-6

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  95. IHOP is repackaged gnosticism.

    Like the serpent, IHOP doctrines promise great power and knowledge--and delivers nothing but death.

    Very good article.

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