Monday, July 11, 2011

Bill Johnson and John Crowder's Leaven

It is endemic to the river branch of Christianity today to not be critical of aberrant teachers, but rather to embrace them. At the very top of the list of aberrant teachers (perhaps heretical) is John Crowder, the man who promotes among other things "toking the Holy Ghost." Crowder also embraces a strange form of necromancy that runs rampant in the "river."

As an example of that unabashed acceptance, here is a recent facebook exchange between David Williams and Bill Johnson:

Williams: So I presume that you and Beni have no issues with the teachings and actions of these (Crowder and Dunn) ministries?

Johnson: We are friends. For us agreement isn't a prerequisite for any friendship. We love them and honor them. Great people.

This is not unlike Johnson's response when he came to the defense of the indefensable Todd Bentley during the Lakeland fiasco.

"Have you spent time with Todd? Do you know him? Have you watched him with his wife? Or have you seen how he treats his kids?...I didn't think so. I have. And I'll continue to support those who I have walked with in life and ministry. He's my friend." -Bill Johnson


So, we can understand that Johnson places a high value on friendship, perhaps higher than putting biblical principals into action. He certainly does not know how to deal with leaven.

In another facebook exchange Dan Carlton asks Bill Johnson about Dunn and Crowder:

Carlton: Why would you entertain two crazy nutters like Ben Dunn and John Crowder?

Johnson: I'll stand with the accused anyday before I'll stand with their accusers.

Sounds like boasting, no? Let's see how the Word of God addresses this:
"Your boasting is not good. Don't you know that a little yeast affects the whole batch of dough?" -1 Corinthians 5:6

You talk about a prophetic word to the church today! Yeah, I'll put a "thus saith the Lord" in front of that scripture. It's found in His Word. He said it.

Bill Johnson has voiced his acceptance of John Crowder. What does Crowder teach? How is that leaven spreading throught Johnson's Bethel School of Supernatural Ministry (BSSM)?

Crowder, kneeling at the grave of Alexander Dowie and speaking to the camera says:
"And we've just come to the grave today to release to you an impartation of healing revival, of city building, restoration city-taking anointing, master-building apostolic anointing, and so we just rip it right out of the ground, we just suck it right off his dead bones, in Jesus name, and loose it to you., a healing-revival-glory-master-building-apostolic anointing glory..."


 

Other have commented on this, bringing up the shortcomings of Alexander Dowie. Quite frankly, this would be just as wrong if it were the grave of the Apostle Paul. There is no biblical basis for this practice and it leads people into error.

So just how do these "great people," Dunn and Crowder, impact the students at BSSM?


BSSM students and Bethelites at the same tombstone seen in the Crowder video above.



BSSM Students on ministry trip "soaken up the glory" at Maria B Woodworth-Etter's grave.


 

2nd Year BSSM students "sucking up the anointing" at the grave of Evan Roberts.



"So today I got impartation from Maria Woodward Etters
grand-daughter and soaked at the grave site..."


Bill Johnson could put a stop to this immediately if he wanted to. And yet he does not. Instead, he has launched an initiative to build "a library/museum called The House of Generals. It will be a place where people can come to see artifacts from past revivals..."

Yes, you too can suck the anointing right off of Kathryn Kuhlman's wedding dress!

Is this ancestor worship? Necromancy? A doctrine of mantle reincarnation? Has Bill Johnson crossed the line from abberancy into heresy?


Bethelite at Smith Wigglesworth's grave- caption reads:
"In Bradford soaking up Smith's anointing..."



 

Bill Johnson visiting the same grave




BSSM student(s) catching some anointing from Aimee McPherson's grave.



Johnson can dismiss me as an accuser. I'm simply presenting the evidence. Again, Johnson can put a stop to this now. Or he can enlighten the church now with a credible, biblical explanation of the doctrine of "sucking the anointing off of gravesites."  I'm familiar enough with the story of Elisha's bones (2 Kings 13:21) to know that this is NOT what that was talking about. And if that WAS meant to be prescriptive, I say to the Johnsonites- "Here's a shovel, now go find a dead man." And report back to the class.

150 comments:

  1. First a short background. I have visited Bethel and also sat in during one of the BSSM sessions. During my (thankfully) short visit there, we also stayed with a few of the students attending BSSM.

    One small note on that first response of Johnson's: He talks about honor. They teach honor with respect to Romans 12:10 and the reading of "Outdo one another in showing honor."

    I can say for a fact that for the students attending the school, this is a foundational concept for them. It is something that comes prior to and is a foundational aspect for other concepts learned within the school. Now obviously this is passed down from the leadership.

    I guess I relate all that to say that I am not surprised that Johnson would use that language. It's a basis for his life and the ministry of the school he mentors.

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  2. Re: Honor.
    What a wonderful (and needed) concept that is. Interesting to note the verse right before Romans 12:10, which says:

    "Love must be without hypocrisy. Abhor what is evil, cling to what is good.

    And in the next chapter (no chapter divisions in the original)

    "Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour."

    As I said, not wanting to draw a line in the sand is endemic. And here, the line needs to be drawn.

    Thank you for your response.

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  3. Leonard Ravenhill7/12/11, 9:19 AM

    "I get calls from all over the world, everyone wants my anointing and mantle... but nobody wants my sackcloth and ashes."

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    1. DULY NOTED...

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    2. Amen Brother

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    3. Hmm! well I can respect another persons anointing and what price they paid to walk in it. But I just can't see myself desiring another persons anointing I'd rather have the one God meant for me because I will fit into to it better.

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  4. The very idea of sucking up an anointing from a dead person gives me the creeps. Is it even remotely physchologically mormal to want to participate in something like this?

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    1. 2 Kings 13:21.... Creepy Bible story?

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    2. Sarcasm noted. This passage has been addressed above, but I would like for anyone to demonstrate 1) that the person thrown on Elisha's grave obtained Elisha's anointing and 2) that the passage was prescriptive not descriptive.

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  5. Street Preacher7/29/11, 8:57 AM

    Well, this is typical of the madness and abandonment of Biblical direction that is prevalent in the "church" today. One must wonder how many of these, so called, leaders in the church are even saved. Experience is more important than God's Word,it seems, leaving the decieved wide open to satans tricks and heresies. No discernment, no oversight, no observer willing to stand up and shout "Hey this is not Scriptural". Oh thats right, they will get kicked out of the bless me club. What happened to the Gospel?

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  6. Thank you for this fantastic post. I've seen these pictures before, but this is a great write up to help explain them.

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  7. It reminds me of the amazing Old Testament story of Elisha's bones 2 Kings 13: 14-25. Maybe they're reasoning that if there was so much of God's power on Elisha's bones, maybe it's the same nowadays with some people ?

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  8. Of course, if this is true, then we ALL should be doing it. If it is not true, then no one should be doing it.

    And if God's ressurection power resides on the bones of Alexander Dowie, then just sitting on top of the grave and play-acting is a mistake- I say dig him up and pass the bones around.

    But seriously, this was Elisha's 33rd and final miracle. And it has not been repeated since. Not once.

    If Bill Johnson's students are doing this without correction, then why isn't Bill Johnson doing it? Or is this behind his recent plans to create a museum of religious artifacts? Just wondering!

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    1. If that is true about starting a Museum for artifacts...WOW..that bears out "Nothing New under the Sun"...The RC Church has the Patient on that..lol

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    2. Bethel has spent 1 million for Robers Liarodn's personal collection and just purchased a building to house the "museum" for 3 million dollars.

      He says the Lord told him to do so- this "mandate," according to Johnson, comes from "headquarters" which is apparently bethel-speak for the mouth of God.

      http://mandate.ibethel.org/#takeAction




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    3. Evil. Just plain Antichrist devil worshiping evil. Anyone who can't see that immediately should get on their knees and beg God until they are able, lest you go through life blowing about from one lie to another.

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    4. I do not know alot concerning the Bethal Church. What I know is many churches do not build museums for the so called revivalist, but they are actually museums. I travelled in my life and visited many churches. They do worship the dead also! You walk in a church and you find a plague honouring the pastor who built the old church, you see pictures and organs and benches with names on. No new pastor or member can touch that! You know it is the truth! These buildings are all over the world! The problem I think is bigger than we think! Saying again, I do not know the Bethel movement than some of you, but many churches are actually museums!

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  9. " For i determined not to know anything among you save JESUS CHRIST and HIM crucified" ICor.2;2. It seems that these "leaders and "followers" have lost sight of this.

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  10. I find it troubling that there are Christian people--quite obviously taken with their intellect and uber-spirituality--who feel qualified, even compelled to judge those with whom they do not agree. And make no mistake, whatever spin you attempt to apply to what you have voiced in this post is, without question, judgmental. Sorry to be so blunt, but there it is.

    I know nothing of John Crowder's ministry, but I know Bill Johnson. And it is true...he's all about honor, a subject that, by all appearances, is in woefully short supply in this post.

    You use the term "leaven" quite liberally and decidedly out of context. I'm not sure what your point is, but if you are suggesting that Crowder and Johnson are to be likened unto the Pharisees of Jesus' day, your argument is wafer thin, my friend, and not to be taken seriously.

    RE your issue with Bill Johnson defending Todd Bently. In answer to that, I simply refer you to 2 Samuel 1:17-27, most commonly referred to as the "song of the bow."

    You seem to have a quite a bit of Bible knowledge. Just make sure that you are regarding the "whole counsel" of scripture, and not just the sections that support your view. One final suggestion...let grace rule. rg

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    1. You are sounding a bit like a judge of the judges.

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    2. Yes, we are making a sound and biblical judgment by marking those who cause division by their false teaching and destructive heresy. Face it Mr Ryan, you are in a cult, you have been seduced, and you are drinking the kool-aid. Now, that being said, would you correct us for calling out Mormonism or JW cults? Is it judgmental to point out their false teaching and practices? No, it's biblically warranted... same thing here. Stop following wolves like Bill Johnson!

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    3. Bill's not a wolf... They usually hide in sheep's clothing. Bill is a snake!

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    4. Just one little Biblical correction for the druggie in the video. The dead in Christ are dead, not alive yet. He evidently does not read the Bible.

      1 Thessalonians 4:14-17
      English Standard Version (ESV)
      14 For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep. 15 For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord,[a] that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.

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    5. Standard apologist for unbiblical behavior. They're everywhere these days and the words "Pharisee" and "Religious!" are never far from their lips.

      Sign of the times.

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  11. Pastor Gollner,

    Your first paragraph is quite judgmental, and in contrast to my well-researched article, is full of presumption. With your apparent revulsion against judging, how can you live with yourself? Can you see that you just judged, which was your issue with me. It would be funny if not so sad.

    You really should learn more about John Crowder's ministry, as it is indeed leaven, which like bad yeast, is spreading throughout the lump. The point of the article was to illustrate how that leaven - the hideous doctrines and practices of John Crowder - is now spreading throughout Johnson's BSSM school.

    If you, and the River Church Las Vegas, are going to defend (or even "honor") the apostate Crowder, I will give you the same challenge I issued to Bill Johnson:

    You can enlighten the church now with a credible, biblical explanation of the doctrine of "sucking the anointing off of gravesites."

    Your brother in Christ,
    Bill Fawcett

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    1. Regarding the above exchange (and please excuse me for interrupting or interferring) but as I read it, I was reminded of Matthew 7:24 in the Bible which admonishes all believers to judge righteous judgments.

      Being "judgmental" in this sense can also be synonymous with having spiritual discernment and being a good student of the Word of God, which is not a bad thing at all. (2 Timothy 2:15)

      In fact, discernment is vital to these types of discussions. All throughout the Old and New Testaments we are shown case in point after case in point in which the Word of God is used righteously and unrighteously. Even satan used Scripture in his attempts to tempt Christ.. so we should expect that the Bible will be twisted in order to either dismiss sin, or to pass "unrighteous" judgment which amounts to hypocrisy according to the Scriptural context -- not to making a judgment call based on clear Scriptural direction.

      I always find it interesting when people run to the defense of a man (any man) to defend his honor without searching the Word to see if the allegations against him have any truth. Only God the Father, God the Son (the Word) and the Holy Spirit are infallible.

      Men, all of them, are fallible though.. so as much as we should share the truth in love, we *must* first be willing to see the truth. This requires removing our own person feelings about the man or woman in question, and realizing that our first responsibility is to the Body of Christ as a whole, not to any one man.

      These are my thoughts.. I hope it was okay that I shared them. Thanks so much for the information you shared in this post. Having never heard of some of the things you've mentioned here, all I can say is, even so Lord.. come quickly.

      Blessings,

      Stephanie

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    2. Thank you for your words of admonition.

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    3. We are told to make judgments constantly in scripture. This idea of not "judging" within the church goes against most of the new testament writings of Christ, Paul, Peter, John, and James. If we can't "judge" what is right, then we will fall for all kinds of deception, and all the church fathers, in keeping with Jesus, warn us of this. God, give your church an extra measure of your discernment, that we may judge rightly, and that we would be led into all truth. Keep us from condemnation, but lead us to repentance.

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    4. I would encourage any in discussions of this manner to remove the people and make it about the doctrine or false doctrine. We do not battle against flesh and blood so why are we making it about the man who is redeemable even if off in his doctrine. Why not make it about the word and allow that to stand or not. I believe this would be honouring to God as well as the people. Scripture says to reason together not to trash one another. The way to allow people to see the false is to fully have them know the true.

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  12. I can only hope you pray for these guys 10x more than you critique them, but sadly I doubt it from your tone. Self-righteousness will destroy the church faster than anything and this blog reads like a modern-day Pharisee convention.

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  13. Joe,
    So you agree that they are decieved and need prayer? What if the delusion is the strong delusion that God sends (2 Thes 2:11)- should we pray against the hand of God?

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    1. william, i so agree with you that God has sent a delusion. Why? Because they refuse to use the bible as their plumbline. Why? Because they are lazy and will not read God's Word. They would rather resort to extra-biblical revelations, soothsaying, which they call the prophetic. I watched the John Crowder 'magic carpet' video and cried my heart out. The blasphemy in Jesus' Name is horrific to say the least. I wud rather err on the side of legalis than be apart of this abomination. Linda

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  14. I am not an apologist for Bill Johnson, nor anyone else for that matter, so I'll not be addressing the particulars of your complaint against him.

    What I do wish to address is this: I'm put out with you, Mr. Fawcett. Quite put out, indeed. For you are better than this sad, silly and misguided foray into the nether regions of religious criticism. And for what? What do you seek to gain? Why all this needless folderol? At what point were you appointed watchman of holy writ? And by whom?

    I've been in full-time vocational ministry for over forty years. I've seen movements come and go. Self-appointed "men of God" come and go. Revivals of all flavors come and go. In that regard, I've historically held to the "Gamaliel" approach to sorting out troubling trends.

    Are there things I don't understand? Of course! Are there things in this movement that are weird? Indeed! But, I'm not called to judge, but to love (and if you found my previous comment judgmental, I apologize, for that was most certainly not my intent).

    You are well-spoken and have a strong writing voice which bespeaks of a deep, deep well of Biblical knowledge. Having read a number of your posts I admire the obvious effort that has gone toward filling that well. It's a well that could be so useful to the Kingdom if applied in a more positive manner. Controversy will garner you a measure of readership, perhaps a smidgen of notoriety...but in the end what have you accomplished apart from argumentative pursuit?

    And THAT, my friend, is my sticking point with all this. What are you accomplishing? I'll not argue with you any longer, but I would be delighted to get to know you for you seem well worth knowing.

    I remain, YOUR brother in Christ,

    rg

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  15. Ron,

    If I were to re-write this article, I would start it out something like this:

    "It is endemic to the river branch of Christianity today to not be critical of aberrant teachers, but rather to embrace them."

    Actually, that's how I did start it out. It is unfortunate that I find it necessary to name names in such articles, but because those names identify significant movements, they remain. It is not my intention to judge these folks - only God know their hearts - but rather to point out - for those seeking such information - some of these practices of these groups.

    There are many people who are confused, hurt, even damaged by these practices who are looking for information. Having been involved with such things since the 70s, and having met many of the major players in this movement, I can speak with a depth of knowledge and experience. And I have gained great freedom and spiritual growth having retreated from the extremes of the apostolic/prophetic, not leaving God, or the Holy Ghost, but faithfully following Jesus in a manner prescribed by the Word.

    It would be easy to walk away from apologetic blogging (and I have tried), but God won't let me. I don't like being in the middle of confrontation- who does? My calling is to snatch a few brands from the fire. If some do not like that, or perceive that this is not God's will for my life, fine; I can live with that.

    I am grateful for the many testimonies that I have received by email, of folks around the world who have found information that - along with prayerful consideration - has helped them to find freedom and to recover from the spiritual confusion (as Derek Price called it - "a mixture of spirits") that is the apostolic/prophetic movement today.

    Thanks for the well thought-out reply, which I did not expect. We simply disagree on the utility of exposing people to facts. The pictures of BSSM students in this article, and the quotes, are indisputable. I do not think I have been ungracious in my interpetation of those facts, and indeed would welcome further communication from Johnson concerning these problems.

    Johnson is a smart guy, and his dancing around these issues does not demonstate the apostolic leadership abilities he claims to have. I imagine the apostle Paul's reaction to disciples sucking the anointing off of graves would be quite different, no?

    Blessings to you.

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  16. Joe Lopez III, San Diego10/14/11, 12:33 PM

    In response to RG Ryan's question to W. Fawcett asking who appointed him watchmen of holy writ, I point to Jude - the brother of Jesus. "Beloved, although I was very eager to write to you about our common salvation, I found it necessary to write appealing to you to contend for the faith that was once for all delivered to the saints." Jude 1:3
    Bill Johnson is preaching another gospel which in the words of Paul is really no gospel at all. I know many people especially young believers that have been deceived by Johnson’s blasphemy. Mr. Johnson could easily answer his critics scripturally if scripture backed his theology. His support of the heretics John Crowder and Todd Bently is unconscionable.

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  17. William,

    As noted, I have great respect for anyone who has dedicated their life to pursuing Biblical truth. And I respect you, my friend.

    Something Mr. Lopez said troubles me. He said, "I know many people especially young believers that have been deceived by Johnson’s blasphemy." Sir, do you realize that there are many good, Christian people who would label you and I BOTH heretics and "blasphemers" for the simple sake of not agreeing with what we each teach? We need to be careful in how we throw that word around. I fear we have applied it far too liberally of late.

    Do you not realize that the heart of the Father beats passionately for those men you so easily write off? I urge you to rethink your posture, for just because you differ with someone's teaching does not make it heresy.

    Have people been hurt at BSSM? Absolutely. Have people been hurt at any parochial school/college you care to name? Bet on it! Have people been hurt by the leadership of YOUR church? Unquestionably.

    With even the most cursory survey of church history one will glean the indisputable fact that there has always been doctrinal disagreement. Often this agreement has led to heretical charges lobbed across theological divides like ICBM's. Which is exactly my point.

    This is nothing new. I have been a pastor in Presbyterian, Baptist, Assembly of God, and independent churches. I was deeply involved in the Jesus People Revival and Charismatic Renewal of the early 70's, as well as involved peripherally with the Brownsville Revival in Pensacola Florida. Can I tell you something? Every single one carried its own bit of doctrinal controversy...according to SOME people. It never stops. Controversy. Never. Stops! And who's to say what's right or wrong? We each must choose a belief system that resonates in our own spirits.

    I see that I have once again succumbed to verbosity...but I AM a writer, after all. 8-)

    I'll close with this. C.S. Lewis once said, "A man with an experience is never at the mercy of a man with an argument." I've had an experience. And I am satisfied with that.

    Be well, friend Bill. Fight the good fight. Go hard after your dreams. Feel free to write to me: riverchurchlv@gmail.com

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    1. Biblical unity can only be true when it is had around the Truth of God's written Word. Lies (i.e., heresy) destroy biblical unity and must be swiftly and clearly flagged as unbiblical. It's our job as believers to warn when/where we see lies and deception. Paul said that if anyone, even he or an angel from heaven, preached another gospel, "let them be accursed." He said it twice in a row. Paul also instructed Timothy to watch his life AND doctrine closely. Sound doctrine is not "dead legalism." It's absolutely vital to keeping our faith from becoming derailed by an incredibly crafty and deceptive enemy. I can't believe you're touting relativism, Mr. Ryan. If you are too frightened or confused to call people to abandon CLEARLY unbiblical teaching and practices (and I'm not talking about the things we have freedom to differ on), then I hope you will not try to dissuade those God has called by His grace and empowered by His Spirit to speak up for the truth, for the sake of those who are vulnerable to wolves in the flock. I came out of a church that fell into Latter Rain heresy. I know how confusing things can get. Make like a Berean, man, and get a handle on what is and isn't true. Read the online PDF "ANOINTING OR APOSTASY" by a charismatic brother named Mr. Graves. Super helpful, and he's from the inside looking at stuff, seeking the truth, not from the outside, throwing stones. Do read it and consider the roots of this movement and it's manifestations in the church today. It was hard to admit I'd been duped, but it was freeing to get back in line with the truth.

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  18. Bill Johnson has honor for his friends but not for God's Word. Continue shouting from he mountaintops about him and his dominionist peers. They are leading thousands of people astray and possibly to Hell.

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  19. RG Ryan~ Just because there are people in general who would label any kind of person that disagreed with their understanding of God's word doesn't mean their labeling is true. The bible teaches us that their is the Spirit of truth who will cause those who LOVE the truth to all come to the same understanding and perception of what God's word means and applies. Then it speaks of a spirit of error and that is with people who end up opposing the true perspective of God's word revealed by the Holy Spirit to those who love the truth. There is only 1 truth. If there is division among the body of Christ then the division is a result of heresies being accepted as the truth without testing them up against the word of God and His perspective of what He meant. Bill Johnson speaks out of pride and is boasting as the author's post said. The apostles or Jesus NEVER boasted nor supported a person or ministry that was corrupt and perverted God's ways. Todd Bentley and John Crowder are such that do as well as Bill Johnson. Which is why they all support each other in order to portray a false unity and a false love that is not from God or that is portrayed in His word. Remember the tower of babel? These were all in unity building their own way to God. But God was not approving of what they were doing and confounded their language in order to stop what they were doing because they were all in agreement and God said nothing would be impossible for them as a result of their unity. But that unity was not from God nor was their goal from God. This tower of babel is at work trying to finish what it started years ago. Satan and his minions work in agreement to accomplish their goals in humans they have deceived. As I look at God's word and His character and His character in His apostles it is contrary to that of John Crowder, Todd Bentley, and Bill Johnson. None of them love the truth and NONE of them preach the truth by the Holy Spirit. They all preach false teachings and all promote each other in deception to deceive the body of Christ with pagan demonic spirituality and falsely calling it the Holy Spirit. 1 John 4:1Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.~~~ We as believers have a right to not believe every spirit and to try them to see if they are of God because of false prophets among us claiming to be true prophets. 1 John 4:5They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.6We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.~~~ If a person is truly speaking the truth and by the Holy Spirit those who love the truth and have the Holy Spirit will listen and recognize the truth when it is presented and agree with those who are presenting the truth. But those who have a different spirit and not speaking the truth but are affected by a spirit of error will not agree with those who present the truth because they are under deception but think they are not.

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    1. amen, amen. Totally agree.

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  20. Comment pt 2~ All the deceivers twist the true meaning of God's word just enough to deceive those who are not trying the spirits and knowing exactly what the truth is according to God's perspective not popular men. We have been brainwashed to believe that any person in a ministerial position automatically preaches the truth and no error or deception is in it. But this is not true. We do well to examine and study to show our selves approved and know what God's perspective of truth is rather than become more familiar with the popularly accepted. Satan's greatest way to deceive is to used the most popularly widely accepted people so he can spread deception faster to more people. Any person including christians can have demons they are guided by and deceive others through them knowingly or unknowingly. Our job is not to defend those who preach false teaching in the name of 'love'. This is NOT love. Love is to obey His commands. Love and truth go together because Jesus is the TRUTH and God is love. The epistles of John and the gospel of John both talk about the importance of truth and love together. It is one thing to pray for those that are deceived that is love. But to promote the deceived as ministers of God is not the love of God but is to be deceived and to be used of satan to perpetuate deception. In fact to promote a person who is teaching false teachings and to defend the person above the truth of God's word according to His perspective is to be in idolatry. We don't esteem relationships with people above God, the truth, and His pure love. This is Leviathan at work. the sons of pride who are in such unity that they do not repent when the word of God is sent to them. They ignore the truth and continue on in their deception as if they are God...God loves humility. A person who walks in the fear of the Lord and makes sure that he is not going ahead of God and teaching things that is not in agreement with the Holy Spirit of truth and the word of God. Experiences should always be tested against the word and never elevated above it.

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  21. RG Ryan,

    You wrote: In that regard, I've historically held to the "Gamaliel" approach to sorting out troubling trends.

    The ol' Gamaliel argument. With that logic then the JW's and LDS church are legitimized. I prefer to see whether said ministry is adhering to historically orthodox Christian doctrine relying on objective Truth rather than subjective "knowledge." With that in mind, I hold to Jesus' approach:

    15 “Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16 By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.
    21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

    24 “Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. 26 But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. 27 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash.”
    [Matthew 7:15-29 NIV 1984]

    The “Rock” is Jesus. Jesus is the Word made flesh. I’ll stick to the Word, the Rock.

    http://notunlikelee.wordpress.com/?s=%22look+at+the+fruit%22

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Thank you for not hesitating to defend the truth! These men no nothing of honor as they dishonor the Lord Jesus in the name of the Spirit! We have accepted idocy in place of orthodoxy. We have been cautioned by "Pastor" R.G. about judging. I finf it ironic that a "pastor", which means shepherd, is cautioning sheep to be slow to recognize wolves. Any real shepherd would rather have a paranoid floc that runs away from any wolf like behavior than to have a curios flock that goes twords every wolf.
      Let me caution "pastor" R.G. I look at your list of associations from Presbeterian to Jesus movement, to Brownsville revivalist and it is troubling the mixing of cups from which you drink. The sad part is that is that I have heard all of them criticize guys like you, wishy washy, namby pamby, jelly backs!!
      The one thing Calanist, Charismatics and Brownsvile revivalist have in common pastor R.G. is disdain for guys like you who are not "all in". Even the Pharasees and Saducees had this in common with Jesus, they all demanded you take a side. Jesus said:
      "...I would that you were cold or hot. Because you are neither cold nor hot but luke warm I will spew you out of my mouth."
      R.G. instead of pastoring a "River" church you should name it the "First Church of the Holy Spew". By the way I say this in all Love...
      of the Truth!

      By the way if you think criticizing a brother in error is wrong read Revelation chapters 2 and 3 and see how often Jesus criticizes the church, calls out names, rebukes practices and commends individuals for not geting caught up in false teaching. Do yourself a favor pastor pick a side!

      Delete
    2. Easy there, Carlton!

      I would like to steer the discussion away from personal attach and towards substance - from whichever side of the issue.

      Your points about judging are correct.

      Delete
  22. Joe Lopez III, San Diego10/18/11, 1:19 AM

    Thank you Candy for making my point. Twisting God's word and creating your own gospel apart from the full counsel of God's word is blasphemy.

    ReplyDelete
  23. WHile I appreciate the flurry of comments, let's not make this into a name calling pharisee v. heretic thing.

    The point of the article is that Johnson's tacit approval ("honor") of John Crowder has brought Crowder's practice of sucking the anoining off of graves into BSSM.

    Cause and effect.

    Will Johnson renounce this, or is it somehow acceptable in the apostolic/prophetic. And if so, should others not discuss it in order to bring unity to the church?

    Again, I'd like to hear someone develop an apologetic for this behaviour, because I can't find a middle ground- it's either from God (and we should ALL be doing it) or it is straight from the pit of hell.

    ReplyDelete
  24. Now that I've got your attention, prepare for the really bizarre stuff from John Crowder

    -begin quote-

    Stigmata and Blood Sign Miracles

    We invited guest speaker Lucy Rael, a woman of utmost integrity who has for decades manifested the “blood sign,” or stigmata, on her physical body. Not only did the blood sign appear before the gathered crowd in south Atlanta. Also, there were dramatic manifestations of thick, supernatural gold flakes and copious amounts of supernatural oil that flowed from Lucy’s hands as she ministered.

    -end quote-

    http://thenewmystics.com/Articles/1000040754/Home_Page_of/Articles/Teachings/2008_Archive/Stigmata_and_Blood.aspx

    ReplyDelete
  25. this link should work

    http://tinyurl.com/86jjdye

    ReplyDelete
  26. What if those "odd" things that you say come from John Crowder are actually coming straight from God? Instead of spreading things around saying this isn't from God, maybe you should take a few years off and spend some 1 on 1 time with Him and see what He says. :) Blessings. I had issues wondering about it, too, and asked God...and God gave me the green on John's teachings.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. God reveals Himself in His Word. If you would have known His Word, you would have known the Truth, but you don't.
      It was OK when you had issues wondering, you were so right to do it but you succumbed to the Fathers of Lies....YOU SHOULD HAVE CHECKED GOD'S WORD!!
      This is not a judgement on you but a wake up call!!
      Check God's word!! Do not run after wonders, miracles, feathers and rubbish like that....we are talking here about God who created the Universe, stars, mountains, animals, etc.....and you come and tell me that He comes and gives you feathers, gold on hands.....lol.....IS THIS ALL YOUR GOD CAN DO?? I pitty you!


      Delete
  27. Well, that settles it, I guess. You heard from God. Ummm, ok.

    ReplyDelete
  28. Hello Brothers & Sisters In Christ

    It may be helpful before you read this post to first read Ephesians Chapter 5 :) and also to some to read James Chapter 3.

    I hope this post is edifying and encouraging to every person who reads it. It is easy to put ones self in a place of judgment by saying things that are critical. I believe that the only way to edify people and fellow Christians is to make sure I have grace in my heart and grace in my mouth and words.

    I am not all that knowledgable about all of the people mentioned in your conversation here. However I am fairly familiar with Bill Johnson since I have listened now and then to his sermons and have been blessed through that.

    I can truthfully say that in every sermon that I have heard him preach he always honors Jesus and so I find the criticism of his ministry problematic. I do not idolize him or any other Christian and I do not believe any teacher is above reproach or error - including myself and the people who write the other comments.



    From what I understand, the biblical concept of honoring comes from Jesus words in Matthew 10

    40 “Anyone who welcomes you welcomes me, and anyone who welcomes me welcomes the one who sent me. 41 Whoever welcomes a prophet as a prophet will receive a prophet’s reward, and whoever welcomes a righteous person as a righteous person will receive a righteous person’s reward. 42 And if anyone gives even a cup of cold water to one of these little ones who is my disciple, truly I tell you, that person will certainly not lose their reward.”
    .........................
    There are probably more scriptures that back up the concept of honor, this is just the one i know and have practiced in my own life and found to work.

    I believe most of the people posting on this website are righteous in Gods eyes. I also believe most of the people mentioned are righteous even though they may have some teachings that are hard to understand. I also believe that there are people who God has appointed to a life and ministry of a prophet and some that God has appointed to different ministries in the body that are totally different ones.

    Jesus spoke clearly about how the prophets were rejected by Gods own people and they often died at the hands of Gods people Jews and Christians both.

    I am not saying that it is right or even biblical to go to a grave and try to soak up something from the bones. I believe if God wants to give you a mantle or anointing He can do it without you going to a grave. I would like to point out how Elisha was so persistent in following Elijah to get the anointing and mantle.

    Also while there may be nothing in the bible to validate them going to graves of dead saints - there is nothing in scripture to validate the existence of the internet blogs.
    :)
    Is what they are doing by going to graves to pray any different than us on here commenting on what they are doing?

    Jesus also spoke about using our words to build each other up. They are followers of Christ.

    Continued On Next Post :)

    ReplyDelete
  29. Continued from previous post

    James 3
    The Tongue Is a Fire
    1 Let not many of you become teachers, my brethren, knowing that as such we will incur a stricter judgment. 2 For we all stumble in many ways. If anyone does not stumble in what he says, he is a perfect man, able to bridle the whole body as well. 3 Now if we put the bits into the horses’ mouths so that they will obey us, we direct their entire body as well. 4 Look at the ships also, though they are so great and are driven by strong winds, are still directed by a very small rudder wherever the inclination of the pilot desires. 5 So also the tongue is a small part of the body, and yet it boasts of great things.

    See how great a forest is set aflame by such a small fire! 6 And the tongue is a fire, the very world of iniquity; the tongue is set among our members as that which defiles the entire body, and sets on fire the course of our life, and is set on fire by hell. 7 For every species of beasts and birds, of reptiles and creatures of the sea, is tamed and has been tamed by the human race. 8 But no one can tame the tongue; it is a restless evil and full of deadly poison. 9 With it we bless our Lord and Father, and with it we curse men, who have been made in the likeness of God; 10 from the same mouth come both blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not to be this way. 11 Does a fountain send out from the same opening both fresh and bitter water? 12 Can a fig tree, my brethren, produce olives, or a vine produce figs? Nor can salt water produce fresh.
    Wisdom from Above
    13 Who among you is wise and understanding? Let him show by his good behavior his deeds in the gentleness of wisdom. 14 But if you have bitter jealousy and selfish ambition in your heart, do not be arrogant and so lie against the truth. 15 This wisdom is not that which comes down from above, but is earthly, natural, demonic. 16 For where jealousy and selfish ambition exist, there is disorder and every evil thing. 17 But the wisdom from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, reasonable, full of mercy and good fruits, unwavering, without hypocrisy. 18 And the seed whose fruit is righteousness is sown in peace by those who make peace.
    ..............................

    I hope this portion of scripture and Ephesians Chapter 5 are read and can become along with Gods love in our heart a guide for our words and lives. I hope my words are edifying. YJB

    ReplyDelete
  30. YJB,

    The purpose of the article is to give people a familiarity with the bizarre practices of John Crowder and how those practices are now being seen at Bethel. It is a "leaven," or as Ephesian 5 says "an impurity" which must not be named among us.

    Paul goes on to say "Do not participate in the unfruitfuldeeds of darkness, but instead even expose them; for it is disgraceful even to speak of the things which are done by them in secret."

    You are "spot on" in mentioning Ephesians 5. We are charged by the Word of God to expose the deeds of darkness. At best, grave-sucking is a form of idoloatry. This goes far beyond giving "honor." At worst, a form of necromancy.

    Let's lean away from the people involved and look at the practice of grave sucking. Is this something that Christians should do? I think not. Hopefully the exposure of this will help to snatch a few decieved brothers and sisters out of the fire (Jude 23), again something we are called to do.

    ReplyDelete
  31. I'm curious as to what proof there is that BSSM students actually do this. IF they do I would be very interested in seeing it. These pictures could be anyone. Now, I'm not defending Bethel by any means, but before I talk to some of my friends who follow Bill Johnson I would like to have my ducks in a row. I would like to know for sure if they are doing this and or if Bethel supports John Crowder's ministry. Being friends with someone does not make you guilty of what they do. If so we are all in trouble. If you have more evidence I would appreciate it. Thank you.

    ReplyDelete
  32. Curtis,

    The photos came off of facebook pages of BSSM students. Some I accessed, some by an associate. However, some/most of the pictures are not accessible unless you are a friend or a friend of a friend, so it is a time consuming hunt and requires getting into the social network.

    Rest assured, I have other anecdotal evidence that I won't publish because I am not as certain about it validity. These photos- I am certain that they are authentic.

    I have asked Bill Johnson directly about stories of him rolling on John G. Lake's grave, and he refused to answer. Had he said "no" I would have dismissed the story, but now I'm inclinded to believe it- which explains why he can't correct these students.

    ReplyDelete
  33. Let me start by saying that I am a student at BSSM. Bethel does not support John Crowder, they don't sell any of his stuff at their bookstore, and they won't let him come and speak in our community. Kris Vallotton actually told the first year students this year that they would prefer us not to go to other conferences (implied John Crowder, but it is against the culture to speak against a certain person.) So, for all of you to say these things without really knowing what you are talking about is not beneficial at all. I am not the biggest fan of John Crowder, but I don't think he is heretical. Who am I to say that? Who are you to say that? He actually has a lot of good things to say, some other things I question, but those are things I am taking to God, not bashing him on the internet. I'm sure all of you guys bash things like the "glory cloud" on forums also, but have you experienced it? It's easy to read the Bible, sit back, and say things are not of God. What are you doing? How do you know you are not deceived?

    Since I have been at Bethel, my respect level for Bill Johnson has gone through the roof. I am in shear amazement at how he handles himself, and the amount of revelation that guy brings. He lives and breathes Jesus constantly, and it shows! Once you have come and experienced the culture of honor at Bethel (which is a representation of Bill's character), then don't sit back and slander someone who God is using mightily. That is not a place you want to be.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Anonymous,

      I have attended Bethel for two years - only recently just left. Let me say that "Culture of honor" is not biblical - in the sense that they present it. See article here. http://tonymorganlive.com/2011/03/31/honor/

      Ricky Burnett writes, "The places the Church would go if its community would continue to go above and beyond. Amazing perspective. I've seen too many churches that were inward focused on honoring each other. Imagine if instead of standing up when the pastor walks in, we stood up for those who are lost and broken. Imagine if instead of cheering the pastor, we cheered and more over shouted for the soul that found Christ. Imagine if we all gave up our best seat in the church building. And imagine most a church that put the needs of the community above parking spaces, building paint, and stained glass windows. Honor... love it. "

      My experience has been *terrible* at Bethel Church Redding.

      So depressing to see the complete lack of professionalism and character of the senior leaders - had *terrible* run ins with both Kris Vallotton (I question if he "prophecies" from a spirit of divination. He's revelatory, yes, but the last prophetic word I heard (over our nation) I believe it's turning out to be 180 degrees wrong) as well as Mr. "Culture of HOnor" Danny Silk himself. (and he was not all about Culture of Honor - I can assure you...) I was in a heart-wrenching situation and Mr Silk told me to: shut up and take their abuse.

      "you'll know them by their fruit."

      without a doubt.

      wish that someone had warned me...

      God Bless this site and may you continue to flourish as you warn people.

      Also, another warning is that many of the BSSM students are very young, naive people. People with low self-esteem that need the "approval" of these semi-famous people....that's my take on it. Not mature believers, for the most part.

      Delete
  34. Anon,

    I really need to start a new post soon, as my research has uncovered actual video footage of BSSM srudents seeking impartation at graves.

    You make the charge of slander, obviously not knowing what slander it. I deal with facts, and the fact is - with the BSSM students - that many seek after the mantles of departed saints.

    The fact it, Johnson, and Vallotten teach the students to seek after the mantles of departed saints.

    The fact is, that a few years ago Beni Johnson participated with Lilly Crowder in a major conference. The Johnson have not distanced themselves from the Crowders.

    http://fun.eventbrite.com/

    You also appear to value experience over the Word of God. I'd rather have both, and I have spent many years in "the river" to prove it. When push comes to shove, I will choose the Word, because feelings are subjective . That means "often wrong."

    Anyhow, thanks for writing, and thanks for the warning. Next time you see Bill in a classroom situation ask him abou the John G. Lake grave story. I can't imagine why he would not deny it.

    ReplyDelete
  35. Anon,

    IF Vallotten told the students to stay away from Crowder's conference this coing weekend in nearby Chico, that's a good thing.

    Maybe you can get back to us in a week and tell us how many BSSM students you think may have attended. Crowder has suggested that many will attended.

    Also note the principle of leaven. It only takes a small amount of leaven to leaven the whole batch.

    My biggest is concern is why Johnson will not tell students to stop rolling on graves. Why do you think that is so?

    ReplyDelete
  36. I want to know where in scripture you find that this is wrong? And how is your interpretation above everyone else's? Isn't it the job of the Holy Spirit to give us the revelation of the Word of God? That usually happens with experience for me. Sit back and read the word all you want, but are you putting it to action?

    In Acts 10 and 11 Peter had a vision, it immediately came to past, and he acted on it. That still wasn't enough to give him a revelation that Gentiles can receive the Holy Spirit. It wasn't until he went to Cornelius' house and physically saw the HS do his thing, just like the upper room with the Jews! This was the Rock that Jesus would build His church on who was completely mistaken about who could receive the Holy Spirit! And it took him having an experience that got the other Jews all over to see the truth in it!

    1 Cor 1:18 says that the message of the Cross if foolishness to those who are perishing, but to those who are being saved, it is the power of God.

    When you give your life to God, and EXPERIENCE salvation, it is not foolishness. It becomes a reality, where as before, it wasn't. Think back before you were saved, how crazy you though the message of the cross was, and now you aren't saying the same things. God works in mysterious ways.....that still applies today. There are many things I found/find weird, but I have been proven so wrong once I started experiencing them. Tongues look like and sound like complete foolishness, healing sounds insane, Holy Spirit manifestations brings out the spirit of religion like no other, gold dust and glory clouds?? I have no grid for that! But I have experienced all of those things, and I can't refute any of it. We will overcome by the blood of the Lamb and the WORD OF OUR TESTIMONY! That involves us DOING SOMETHING. I hope that your testimony isn't that you have studied the Bible intensely and written on forums trying to call out what is leaven. That sounds a lot like what the Pharisee's did. I am choosing to believe that isn't the case, but I would love to challenge you to go stand in the middle of a glory cloud at Bethel, or go to any service at Bethel and see how there isn't one service that goes by that someone isn't healed. People are going out on a limb and seeing what God can do through them, and he is blowing their minds. Not foolishness anymore!

    ReplyDelete
  37. Deu 18:10 There shall not be found among you anyone who burns his son or his daughter as an offering, [fn] anyone who practices divination or tells fortunes or interprets omens, or a sorcerer 11 or a charmer or a medium or a necromancer or one who inquires of the dead, 12 for whoever does these things is an abomination to the LORD. And because of these abominations the LORD your God is driving them out before you.

    If I understand this right, the whole ourpose is to get some kind of "anointing" from the "dead" person. God said NO don't inquire of the dead or necromancer. IT IS AN ABOMINATION. So anyone telling you it's OK is leading you into sin. Period!

    TH

    ReplyDelete
  38. Out of the 12 tribes of Israel, only 9.5 crossed the River of Jordan and another 2.5 were happy with status quo and didn't cross it. Ever wondered why?

    Jesus said the Holy Spirit is like streams of living water (John 7:38-39). Can you see the connection with the above? There'll be people who believe in the Baptism of the Holy Spirit and the 'signs' that came with it. And there'll be people who don't. And people who don't are mostly critical with people who are.

    When Jesus was on earth 2000 years ago, who were the ones who rejected Him? Sadly, they were people who had vast knowledge of the Scriptures. Sounds like somebody you know, perhaps even very intimately?

    Didn't Paul say in Philippians that as long as Christ is preached, he rejoiced? Didn't Jesus say in the parable of the wheat and the tares to leave the tares alone and when the time comes, He'll do the separation, and not us? Unless you're God and know everything, don't judge. For you may be dishonoring the people God honors.

    ReplyDelete
  39. Anon,
    You say:

    "There'll be people who believe in the Baptism of the Holy Spirit and the 'signs' that came with it."

    That would be me.

    What I don't believe in is anything that resemble necromancy.

    Talk about judging; you must have thought I was not a pentecostal. :)

    ReplyDelete
  40. Me too Bill...

    "There'll be people who believe in the Baptism of the Holy Spirit and the 'signs' that came with it."

    I believe he makes the accusation upon many pentecostals.

    What I don't believe in is anything that resemble necromancy.

    I guess the direction of the Lord in Deut 18. doesn't apply anymore.

    ReplyDelete
  41. all i know is that for the past 2 years i have been buzzed in the spirit as john teaches and it has led me to a holier life than ever, not religious holy but truly hating sin and loving God. this buzz that is on me is probably what paul meant In the Spirit, cause its righteouss, peace and joy in the Holy Ghost.

    ReplyDelete
  42. for the past 2 years i have been buzzed in the spirit as john teaches and it has led me to a holier life than ever, not religious holy but truly hating sin and loving God.

    I'll give my perspective on way this doen't hold water for me. I know many, many, many people who have not had the "BUZZ" who are living a holier life, hate sin, love God.

    And why is that? I believe because they held to the truth of the scriptures and obedience to Christ Jesus after believeing that Jesus is the Son of the Living God.

    I would wonder why a believer would not live a holier, hate sin and Love God after conversion? If we believe the scriptures, we are filled with the same spirit that raised Christ from the dead upon conversion so we should be moving forward in the good work He has started in us. That is, living a holier, hate sin, loving God, life.

    I m wondering if the "buzz" is the "manifestations" and some how one likens it to being more holy because they exhibit these "manifestations"????

    TH

    ReplyDelete
  43. Lauren,

    Not really clear how being "buzzed in the spirit" relates to the topic at hand, which is grave-sucking. Perhaps you can explain how this ties in.

    Have you gone to gravesites seeking impartation? How did that change you?

    ReplyDelete
  44. John Crowder,Bill Johnson, Bob jones,Rick Joyner,and the rest of the "Apostalic" key players are all pushing their extreme concept of the "Anointing" for reasons most are totally unaware of. By focusing their followers attention on it and emphasizing its seeming limitless scope for all who pursue, telling them they will eventually take dominion in their spheres of influence through it and giving their "Fatherly affirmation" to those who excell at it,they set themselves up for a future level of "Apostalic authority " one would never give them today,questioning their prophetic words,visions,visitations etc. is still too common today and they need to be on a par with the SCRIPTURE as to their athority and unquestionableness. this comes when you've had your fun with the new thing and its appeal fades,(too many false words,failed prophecies expectations not met etc.) thats when your told that "THEY" should be the only ones handling "it," you just cooperate and follow their Apostalic Anointing and life will be fine,no need for personal study besides "they" are the ones with the Revealation of Gods master plan...right??? No,we all have to give our own personal accounting and we all have multiple copies of the "letters" God wrote to us(SCRIPTURE!)...I challenge you,take your Bible,open it up anywhere in the New Test. and read a few chapters...anywhere, now ask yourself was the emphasise on "Anointing" or being on guard for error maybe. Enough said.

    ReplyDelete
  45. I think i'm a lil late to this party, but considering the crazy things u describe, didn't Jesus pose some crazy things to the Hebrew people, like eat my flesh and drink my blood? I am a bit uncomfortable with the notion of taking the anointing of a dead brother or sister, prolly the same feeling some Israelites had wit eating Jesus' flesh? This is just me thinking outloud wit other brothers n sisters, clearly we all the love the lord here (at the very least in our own way)

    ReplyDelete
  46. Unknown, Good question. I'll answer it with a question: What did Jesus mean in Johns 6:56? Didn't Jesus explain what he meant in John 6:35?

    "Jesus said to them, “(AV)I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me will not hunger, and he who believes in Me (AW)will never thirst."

    Grave sucking is not wrong because it grosses anyone out, it is wrong because not only does God not tell us to do it, but it smacks of Necromancy, something He told us NOT to do.

    The deeper issue is that it is wrong when me make "the anointing," God's enablement through Holy Ghost, into a substance or commodity.

    Furthermore, we should not be seeking "mantles" (God's commission for our life; Jesus's plan forour lives) from dead bones, but rather directly from God.

    Or to quote Jesus: "Why do you seek the living One among the dead?"

    ReplyDelete
  47. Most (if not all) people in Charismatic 'churches' are not saved because they embrace the heresies of Montanism, Kenosis, and semi-Pelagianism! They are non-Christians and as such need to hear the only true gospel so that God, in His grace, if He so desires, MAY save them!

    ReplyDelete
  48. I would in no way support a practice of "grave sucking", but I think the bigger issue is how easily we label things as "blasphemy", a "false gospel" or a "false doctrine".

    Not everything a Christian has an opinion on reaches the level of a "doctrine", "gospel" or "blasphemy". It may be error, but there is such a thing as error that does not carry with it eternal destruction.

    I cannot say that I support this practice, but it seems to me at worst to be well-intentioned foolishness by people who believe the same gospel that most Christians believe. They have not added anything to the salvation message, nor taken anything away from it. So labeling them, as some have done in reply to this post, as heretics destined for the flames who preach false doctrine or a false gospel seems way off base to me.

    I venture to guess that most Christians are wrong about something. As long as they are not preaching a different gospel than Paul (see Romans) I would be careful with the labels.

    As to Bill Johnson renouncing the practice, I do think I would be concerned if I were He with the students engaging in such things. But openly renouncing Crowder; I guess Bill Johnson believes that he is not in the position of a Paul rebuking a Peter. Or he believe that it is not a fundamental doctrine of the gospel requiring rebuke.

    Regardless, I suspect it will remain a small fad for a time that extremely youthful and zealous kids will pursue. If they are still lying on graves when they are in their 30s and 40s, I would be concerned. Experience and maturity in the Holy Spirit will likely solve the problem.

    ReplyDelete
  49. Personally, I am very reluctant to use the "heresy" label. And I was careful to not use it in the article. Nonetheless, it is a holiness issue that needs to be addressed.

    It's no different than Bethel students getting drunk and falling off cliffs. We shound not wink at this and say they will grow out of it.

    It's not just the kids. Here Jimmy Maddox from the Fredericksburg Prayer Furnace (IHOP franchise) doing the same thing.

    I wonder of people will lie on Bill Johnson's grave 50 years from now.

    ***

    "Why search among the dead for one who lives?"

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  50. Personally, I am very reluctant to use the "heresy" label. And I was careful to not use it in the article. Nonetheless, it is a holiness issue that needs to be addressed.

    It's no different than Bethel students getting drunk and falling off cliffs. We shound not wink at this and say they will grow out of it.

    It's not just the kids. Here Jimmy Maddox from the Fredericksburg Prayer Furnace (IHOP franchise) doing the same thing.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=reMSR1T_yE0

    I wonder of people will lie on Bill Johnson's grave 50 years from now.

    ***

    "Why search among the dead for one who lives?"

    ReplyDelete
  51. sue ellen jones6/18/12, 4:46 PM

    After 35 years in the frozen chosen camp I have moved on to higher ground, and taking some heat for it. Ha,Ha I just attended John Crowder's Mystical School. Very sincere, genuine guy. Fairly brilliant. He is in the public eye taking hit after hit - graciously. Bloggers can hide. Try talking to John one on one, then write your blog. You will find that he loves Jesus Christ and he lives the gospel. The organized church is really funny - they blast all kinds of movements and retreat to their denominational high towers. Denominations are UNBIBLICAL. Bliss to you all sue

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    Replies
    1. All false teachers/false prophets seem genuine and sincere and love a "Jesus".

      Delete
    2. I will say one thing more about what I've read here, Get out and do *[[Mat 28:20]] KJV* Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world Amen! Divide & conquer is the devils own tactic!

      Delete
  52. I have come to the conclusion that this is not about denominations or this ministry or whatever, but rather, the box that God has placed those who believe in.

    It comes down to whether you are following the doctrines and teachings of the Apostles (the only and original 12).

    The idea of "new revelations" is nothing more than a continuation of theology that is rooted in Gnosis and these well intended leaders are, in fact, operating, IMHO, outside the confines of scripture.

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  53. Hmm. I just want to comment on something "anonymous" said. As a BSSM student and lifelong member of Bethel, the bookstore absolutely sells all of Crowder's books and Kris has never once said to stay away from him or his conferences. I am not a fan of Crowder but I don't think lying is appropriate.

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  54. An anonymous poster sent me this link to Crowder's "Statement of Faith"

    http://www.thenewmystics.com/Groups/1000036248/Home_Page_of/About_Us/What_We_Believe/What_We_Believe.aspx

    Like most abberents, the statements of faith (SOF) are mostly orthodox. Crowder's passes muster with the possible exception of his understanding of communion.

    We evaluate a SOF by seeing how it works out in their teaching and practices. Here the grave-sucking Crowder falls short of orthodoxy and orthopraxy.

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  55. Thats just too hilarious! how is johnsons reaction boasting hahaha leaven is mentioned by jesus who is warning us against religeous people like the pharisees, so in the basic sense anyone who is up tight about a little anointing from the dead is just being religeous! hahaha there are just crazy people out there and the student at bssm have teh maturity and knowledge to let the lord confirm this in their hearts.

    dont judge, just shrug hahaha theres nothing evil about this!

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  56. @stressless

    Deuteronomy 18

    9 “When you come into the land that the Lord your God is giving you, you shall not learn to follow the abominable practices of those nations. 10 There shall not be found among you anyone who burns his son or his daughter as an offering, F43 anyone who practices divination or tells fortunes or interprets omens, or a sorcerer 11 or a charmer or a medium or a wizard or a necromancer, 12 for whoever does these things is an abomination to the Lord. And because of these abominations the Lord your God is driving them out before you. 13 You shall be blameless before the Lord your God, 14 for these nations, which you are about to dispossess, listen to fortune-tellers and to diviners. But as for you, the Lord your God has not allowed you to do this.

    What does the word necromancer that I bolded above mean? You know the answer, if not look it up and then I ask, "Why are they disobeying GOD?"

    TJH

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  57. I have two things to say to this. Why are you obsessed with Law? Also have you ever prayed for a blind person recently and they're eyes opened? Have you ever seen miracles after praying for someone? What gives you the right to judge by calling them leaven? what are their fruits? Last time I saw them, they expressed the Love of Jesus and signs and wonders followed them. That tells me that they are of God. Signs and wonders do not follow those who don't believe.

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    1. A Tree and its Fruit Matthew 7:22
      …21"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. 22"Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' 23"And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'
      I think you mentioned something about signs and wonders?

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  58. Wow, where to start? First, it would be nice of you to address substance instead of just making an ad hominum attack. Seems like you are judging too. How is that right under your own law?

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  59. In reply to RG Ryan: I know Bill Johnson, too. I know him by his fruit. Please read my article, "Lives Destroyed by the NAR" by Man from Modesto.

    The churches that teach "don't judge me" are typically the same who are afraid of the Light because it will expose their wickedness.

    Ever read this one, "Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment"?

    Jesus said he only did and spoke what He saw the Father in Heaven speaking and doing.

    Hence, a right judgment can only come through the Holy Spirit.

    Bill Johnson and the other NAR wolves are a test for seekers of God. Will you follow man, or will you follow God?

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  60. Please read:

    Dear Schlyce,

    I attended the recent conferences held at prayer mountain with my husband Caleb. I wanted to thank you for the genuine love that we felt there. I believe that you have a heart for God, but after several red flags came up in my spirit, and looking into John Crowder's ministry we will not be attending Prayer Mountain again. I have grieved in my spirit and have been praying about this situation. I want you to know that I do not take writing this letter lightly, and it is done in love. I am grieved because Caleb and I so wanted to be a part of Prayer Mountain. The videos that I've posted are self explanatory. I am praying for you, and everyone at Prayer Mountain. I hope that you will prayerfully read the articles, and seek God on this. I have forwarded these links to Charis Bible College as well because of your internship program.

    Caleb and Toni Hurley

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2X1HC-3s3uI&feature=youtube_gdata_player

    https://www.youtube.com/watch? v=mNGPA6Idopg&feature=youtube_gdata_player

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fKj-pFo11ys&feature=youtube_gdata_player http://www.svchapel.org/resources/articles/23-doctrine/545-mysticism-part-1

    http://www.svchapel.org/resources/articles/23-doctrine/546-mysticism-part-2

    http://www.svchapel.org/resources/articles/23-doctrine/547-mysticism-part-3

    http://www.svchapel.org/resources/articles/23-doctrine/548-mysticism-part-4

    http://www.svchapel.org/resources/articles/23-doctrine/549-mysticism-part-5


    Her response:
    God bless you Toni. We will be praying for you guys. I have peace about my relationship with John Crowder and must follow My heart in integrity.

    I encourage you to reconsider your judgement and actually read his materials. I highly recommend his book Mystical Union and he recently co-authored a book with Andrew Wommack entitled Living Grace.

    I would be happy to talk with you and Caleb in person about your decision. I sense the enemy is working to separate you from the very place The Lord has sent you to receive truth.

    I recognize that John Crowder's ministry is controversial. Again, I would be happy to discuss it further with you if you so desire.

    My heart is heavy to see you guys leave because I do truly love the two of you and know that the Lord brought us together.

    Love,

    Schlyce Jimenez

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  61. Please pray for God to put a stop to the deception being taught through John Crowder that is leading so many well meaning Christians astray. Please pray for Prayer Mountain located in Woodland Park Colorado. John Crowder is set to hold a three day event there on Feb. 1st to 3rd in 2013.

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    1. Yikes...That in my Neighborhood...we better get a Grave Watch going <><

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  62. Out of curiosity when the guy fell in Elisha's grave and was resurrected I'm guessing that was the power of God that resurrected him? I don't pretend to understand the mechanics of the power of the Lord in connection to the bones of one of His own, but something miraculous happened because of the Lord. The connection to dead Elisha seemed to have nothing to do with necromancy. What would we think of a modern day testimony if such an accidental miracle happened today? Would we immediately be alarmed with a connection to a dead man? Or would we praise God for a ressurection?
    I do not think this moment at Elisha's grave legitimises a doctrine around a practise of looking for a miracle or impartation at a grave AND I also think it shows God has imparted something (in thus case life) through contact with a dead body. Does this mean He'll do that again? I don't know. Does Jesus' use of spit in healing mean that someone maybe healed with that involved again? I don't know. Nor do I think that is the point.
    If the business about graves here mentioned is ppl looking to receive something from the Lord whilst in proximity to the body of a saint because He's done it once in the Bible then there is no inquiring of the dead involved. It is not looking to the dead as a source of something anymore than someone who wanted to walk in Peter's shadow was confusing Peter as he source of healing rather than the Lord through Him. If I was to mix spit for everyone I prayed for for healing that would not make me a heretic, perhaps I would be guilty of trusting a little more in an example or method of the demonstration of God's power rather than depending on His specific but it would not mean I was attributing power to my saliva.
    If what the pictures and comments allude to is people seeking something not of the Lord from the dead then that would be grave business indeed. If it involved the intention of interaction with the spirit of someone other than Holy Spirit, that would be dodgy. I don't think a single Biblical occurrence needs to = a doctrinal practise but neither does something that involves being near a dead body necessarily = necromancy. If God did something through contact with one dead body then I think it's up to Him if He does something like it again.

    It seems like we've got a big hooha about a principle that may be based on a oneoff occurrence in Scripture that not even Scripture seems to say a lot about. I'm not even close to being an expert or authority on any of this but jut thought I'd post the thought in case it's of any use.

    Also I think the Lord is awesome in His goodness, care, faithfulness, shepherding, grace, love and desire for our wellbeing and revelation of Himself and His kingdom to us. Isn't He amazing! He loved us even while we were dead in our sin! He teaches us and leads us into all Truth! He's made us completely new in Him! He's given us new nature! His given us citizenship in heaven! He's adopted us and made us family! His love, Jesus' cross, eclipses everything else we have going on. He's brought us to Abba! Wow!

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  63. Anon,

    You make some good points. I would have to say that the event at Elisha's grave was not prescriptive, but rather a narrative. Yet it is frequenly used as a defense of the Bethel (and Crowder) practice of "grave sucking."

    If it WERE prescriptive, then they should be actually digging up the corpses and touching the bones. And they shold be dead first!

    The problem here is this: Believers should not seek an impartation of the Holy Ghost from MAN, dead or alive. If this practice (seeking something from the dead) is not necromancy, then it is idolatry. Either way not such a good thing.

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    1. Amen and Amen!

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    2. I thought that all along when I first heard people talking about Impartation...Its Gods Spirit that does the Impartation at His will ..not ours...thanks for confirmation.

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  64. Farley Mowat12/8/12, 3:07 PM

    I like anon's comment. I see what he means. I really am blessed by sites like truthspeaker and beyondgrace, but it bothers me that your very accurate criticisms of bad practices, bad doctrines, false prophets, and bad theology get mixed in with a few times where you completely overstate your criticism and accuse people of something overtly satanic. Perhaps they are just immature people who don't know the Gospel trying to do something they read in the Bible. The criticism of Crowder is accurate but maybe the criticism of the students less so. Just a thought.

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  65. This kind of foolishness hardly deserves any critical thinking. It is so absurd and so fleshly that an appropriate word to address it would be goofy. And I say that with the utmost of doctrinal discernment. :)

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  66. Rom 1:25 For they changed the truth of God into a lie, and they worshiped and served the created thing (the Dead saints) more than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.

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  67. I would say these men are not regenerated,in fact they are devils!

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  68. I know several that have attended Bethel, been in BSSM.. and yes it is true they do not endorse John Crowder nor sell his books. I just looked on their website as well and there is not one book of his on there. Also Kris did ask the students not to attend the Mystic School however... no one can tell anyone NOT to do something and make them not do it. We have choices. Some may have gone just out of curiosity. Bill Johnson is all about honor and we need to be careful with what glasses we choose to wear. I choose the glasses of honor, grace and love. Have I heard John C. Yes, do I agree with the things he says... not all of it. Have I met him yes. Would I listen to him again? No. However I have read his books and they aren't entirely bad.
    Just because Bill and John are friends should not be the basis for judgement. I have never ever seen John speak at Bethel and I watch their stuff ALL the time. Ben Dunn is also on the list of not allowed. We can still be friends with people even if they screw up we just do not have to agree with everything. Have you considered that the reason Bill doesn't speak against these people is because they are friends? Would you want your friend speaking against you behind your back? Think about that! :-)

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    1. what if we put it this way: say that i had a friend who owned a brothel and he was quite open about it to the extent that he advertised it everywhere even to my family members. and also, he was a super super nice guy that also liked to take care of the poor. now, say that some of my family members, including my children, were going to check out this brothel because they thought "what could be so bad, i mean he's obviously a friend of the family." now, how far does it need to go before i am fully responsible for their actions because of my inaction? last i heard, not stopping a crime when it is in your power to do so makes you an accomplice. what is the job of a shepherd? to keep friendship with wolves who want to devour the sheep or is it to keep the sheep away from the wolves at any cost? just some food for thought...

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  69. The comments about not judging remind me of things I would have said once upon a time. That time was when I was filled with zeal, but dangerously confused about the simplicity of the gospel.

    There is no wrath in the New Testament authors like the wrath against another gospel. Those who lean on the seduction of words like "honor," and "friendship," and "unity," to sidestep the issue at hand have a profound disconnect with the God of the Bible.

    Honor and friendship and unity abound in the true gospel of repentance and obedience. Profanity, abuse and division reign in the wake of these other gospels, that seek a new way to get the Spirit.

    There is one WAY, and He is Christ. He said that those who believe would have rivers of Living Water flowing from their bellies! Those of us who have ever sought a "fresh anointing" must consider what biblical defense we have for needing it! There is none!

    The New Testament prescription for "walking in the Spirit" is putting to death the deeds of the flesh. When the pride, the self-love, the bitterness, the laziness go up on the cross with true repentance, the times of refreshing are biblically guaranteed to come!

    How these vain, puffed up, seductive teachers and profferers of new ways to reach, obtain, and release the Spirit of God have deceived us, making us chase our tails to decide whether this new method is over the line, or "too weird." "

    Hmmm...Blowing, yes. Graves, no. Oh, wait, apparently God told anonymous in his quiet time that graves were a go." Anonymous certainly does not need to renew His mind with the Word or repent in any way, just go visit a grave. Oh good, that is a much easier way to get God in your belly! Excuse my sarcasm, but this is a (Jesus) culture unacquainted with the gospel of Christ!

    And for those who pontificate about not judging, please read the Bible!

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    1. This is sober-minded, encouraging, well-worded truth! My heart and spirit are resonating strongly with paragraphs 2-4. Love it! (you don't even need that sarcasm my friend...rejoice in the truth:)

      Thank you for commenting!

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    2. My heart and spirit strongly resonate with paragraphs 2-4. This is the truth, this is the truth. Praise God. (And you don't even need that sarcasm my friend. Just keep speaking that truth!: Isaiah 55? His word will not return void...)

      Thank you for posting!

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  70. I hope the great cloud of witnesses doesn't hear about these grave-clingers!

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  71. I feel very saddened by all these comments I believe in a Saviour who went to the cross,defeated death and rose again and gave us an unmerited gift Grace and Love in this I find no love nor grace which is the message of the bible from beginning to end if you don't have love you have nothing it is all meaningless. I understand that sometimes discipline is needed but this way hurts people. i don't think Jesus would have aired His comments this way He would take them to the person. If you think these things about these two men you should talk to them not air it in public that is not love... Meaningless

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    1. Public teachings demand public response.
      I have attempted to ask Johnson a specific question about his alleged rolling on John Lakes' grave and he would not respond, so please go rebuke him and report back.

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    2. Let's see how Jesus aired his comments:

      "Matt 23:31-33 "Therefore you are witnesses against yourselves that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers' guilt. Serpents, brood of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of hell?"

      Keep in mind, this is documented in the Bible and was said to the Pharisees openly and with many to hear it. Jesus unabashedly called out sin when it came to religious leaders. The sins of the lay people are the ones he typically kept discreet. Why do you suppose that was?

      To whom much is given, much is required. If you are willing to speak on behalf of God, you should be sure that you're speaking rightly. If you aren't, you're misleading his sheep.. and that is a grave offense according to Scripture.

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  72. All of this talk saddens my heart I wonder if the whole point of the Gospel has been missed. I am sure Paul said if you do anything without love it means nothing. I found a saviour who was aniled to a cross for my sins took them to the grave and did not bring them back rose again and returned to the Father so that He could send us an un merited gift in the name of Grace we need to function in Grace and love. we can comment and say things but are you truely sure that you are right because I think Aron and Miriam thought they where right when they spoke aginst Moses but they were not when your descernment is not in love it is just an opinion make sure that you love the person before you start these debates because the world is looking for love and grace not opinions that push us away.

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  73. Since when did we get annonting from a grave, it takes the focus away from who we worship.

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  74. Anon and Tarnz,

    For the record, I have tried to discuss such things with Bill Johnson and he was quite rude.

    Those who have a public platform for their teaching can expect public evaluation of thier teaching.

    Was there anything in the article that was not factual? Shouldn't people be made aware of these problems?

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    1. William may God Himself bless u so much for taking the time to encourage and help people like myself.I was deeply entrenched in this awful cult and YES it is a devilish antichrist spirit that has infiltrated true christianity.I have been lied to and decieved by these false ministers for over twenty years.All the foolishness you are exposing on these blogs I have personally witnessed first hand.I thank God for u with tears of gratitude for caring .I love the light of truth shining here.Defender of the faith thanku for helping me.

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  75. I know little of this person, but there is nothing unbiblical about respecting relics of departed saints. "Talking to the dead?" They're more alive than we are.

    2 Kings 13:21
    "And as a man was being buried, lo a marauding band was seen and the man was cast into the grave of Elisha; and as soon as the man touched the bones of Elisha, he revived, and stood on his feet."

    2 Kings 2:14; a river parted by striking it with Elisha's garment
    Matthew 9; 20-21 The woman he faithfully touches Jesus' garment for healing
    Acts 19; 11-12; talks of handkerchiefs which touched Paul being used for healing

    Indeed, the early Church built many churches on the bones of the martyrs.

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  76. And if that WAS meant to be instructive, I say to the Johnsonites- "Here's a shovel, now go find a dead man." And report back to the class.

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  77. This comment has been removed by the author.

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  78. You speak of fruit. What was the fruit of the Kingdom that Christ brought? All were healed, all were delivered, all were set free, all were honored, all were loved! I've been to bethel many times. I've been healed...real physical healing of my body...by the power of God in and through Bills ministry. I've been set free from war induced anger and depression (time spent in combat). It appears as though most of you are looking at the faults of the casket and missing the jewel that God has placed in the leadership of Bethel. All of these postings are centered on fear of God mightly showing up, and you all sit behind your computer screens chalking it up to discernment. Get a revelation! Jesus isn't limited to your little box. As John G. Lake once said, "Only a few folk have had a good sized God."

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    1. No more revelation the canon of scripture is closed my friend.

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  79. I always wonder why people quote John G Lake who has been prooven to be a deceiver. Where does that become "ok" in the church to the point that people just let this junk slide.

    John, if you have truely been healed of the things you say then I give all the Glory to the Jesus/God of the bible. Because I believe that some can and will be REALLY healed, even in the midst of the deception. But the Jesus of Bethel and Bill Johnson IS NOT the Jesus of the scriptures. I challenge you to research on YOUR OWN, find the truth and give HIM even more glory for what He has done to and for you.

    TJH

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  80. Thank God for all you guys!!! He is so big and so real and so GOOD!!!!! I absolutely love John Crowder and Bill Johnson!! My best regards to the owner of this site!!!

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  81. WOW! What a post! What I find most interesting is the "posts" that tend to defend Bethel and the "grave soakers" seem to have an inclination against knowing and quoting the Word of God! Is that what they are referring to when they accuse those that do of being "judgemental" and "critical"! I thought that's what we were supposed to do ..."search the scritures daily, whether those things were so." (Acts 17:11)

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    1. I agree. This can actually be traced to a teaching that both Johnson and Crowder espouse, which is essentially this: If you get too focused on the Bible (the Word of God) then you get puffed up in your intellectual knowledge of God and you make yourself ineffective for the Holy Spirit to move through.

      Now, if that isn't a dangerous suggestion, I don't know what is. The greater majority of Johnson and Crowder's following are the younger generation. While there's nothing wrong with that in and of itself, the spiritual maturity of their followers may be called into question, and *especially* if they're being taught not to "study the Word to show themselves approved, a workman that needeth not be ashamed." In fact, they are being told to do the opposite..

      So many things jump out at me as contradictory about this teaching when paired with some of their others. An obvious one is that these are Word of Faith people. They believe that words have power and that since God SPOKE all of creation into being, and since we are made in His image, our words have power too! And then, behind that profound statement, they tell you that spending too much time with "the Word" (which is Jesus Christ!) will be detrimental to your spiritual efficacy.

      It doesn't add up. In fact, I will go on record as saying that the -opposite- is true. The Bible is a refining tool. Arrogance and pride can (and does) infect many well meaning Christians, but how much more dangerous must it be to get puffed up on your [percieved] ability to "move in the Spirit"? Especially if you have cut yourself off from being affected by the Truth of God's Word by labeling it a liability?

      So much of the teaching these men disseminate from the pulpit blatantly contradicts Scripture, and sadly their young, (potentially) spiritually immature followers are being cautioned -against- the very Scripture that would expose the falsehoods for what they are.

      I'm beginning to wonder if that's a coincidence or not..

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  82. Justina Elsidodi3/23/13, 3:01 AM

    The Annointing is not a thing; it is a person. We don't 'get it' by soaking, impartation, or begging. Jesus is the Annointed...that's what the word Messiah means - annointed. As we live in union with Jesus, His life is expressed through this collection of organzied dust and He touches the people and world around us. The Annointed One flows through us as we abide in Him.

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    1. "As we live in union with Jesus, His life is expressed through this collection of organzied dust and He touches the people and world around us." Say what?

      No disrespect but this sounds a little crazy to me. Perhaps I'm mistaken though. I'm always willing to learn more.

      So, using the Bible, can you please show me where Jesus touches people through a collection of organized dust?

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    2. "this collection of organzied dust" I would almost bet that is in reference to man... God made\formed man out of the dust/dirt of the earth. He "organized" it if you will supernaturally and then breathed on man to give him life.... I would venture to say tha the author is saying Jesus uses man to spread His love and Word... man being the "organized dust"

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    3. Hi, my name is Steve and I have beena member of Bill's church since his days in Weaverville, Ca. in the 80's. I have also been a member of his church in Redding, Ca. While I feel as though Bethel has put more focus on the School of Ministry than those of us taht have been with him in the early years, and not students enrolled in BSSM, I can tell you that Bill is a man of integrity. That being said, if you don't like what he is doing or saying or who he is friends with, then why do you listen to him? Is it simply to ridicule and judge? You could do worse than to have a friend such as Bill Johnson. I may not be interested in BSSM but as a man of God, I know of no man more sincere than he.

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  83. We can all admit Peter got it wrong..... a lot. Said dumb things.... denied Jesus Himself. Yet no one throws words around like heretic. Martin Luther, if you aren't Catholic give a hand to him, for he helped pave your way, yet he said some of the most anti semitic things, yet we hear not talks of heresy. Peter walked on water and Luther changed the world. God loved them through their humanity, maybe they too should have been "beyond grace." I would rather lay on a tombstone (for at worst what is other than rock) and at Best the deceased still carry the anointing such as the case with the prophet. Ezekiel's story is different but worth noting, it too was bones that God allowed Ezekiel to speak life into (literally) Heretic, or someone not afraid to "mess up." Maybe it's not that they're beyond grace but captured what it truly means.

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  84. well, it certainly has been educational reading all these posts. We have a lot of people saying the opposite things. Who can we trust? Who can we believe? God alone. That is the great lesson of this page, I think, as it says in Jeremiah: the one who puts his trust in man is cursed. Jesus is the truth, and His word is truth, and He has given us the Spirit of truth.

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  85. Hi I can not articulate as well as many of you but here it goes. What happened to the Bible being "The Truth". Our church has begun to incorporate the books of Bill Johnson as doctrine into our church and most are unaware. The only doctrine, should be the word of God and people are losing sight of that. Until I started to read my bible for myself and seek God for myself it was very easy to "follow". When we go outside of what scripture has clearly written for us we open our churches to Satan. SOZO, Tunnel of Fire, Tuning Forks they are not scriptually sound. We are to use our minds to think and ask questions that is what we are called to do. Satan has found a new way onto our churches. The Occult is finding its way into God's church, created to worship him. We do not need to lay on a grave to get anointing, seek God for his gifts. Through what is being taught through the B.J ministry there is a meshing of the Bible and the Occult. Two powers that are at war, if we are Christians we are to serve the Lord. Seek the bible for what it says about the dead, there is nothing to be gotten from them. Isaiah 38:18-19, "For the grave cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth. The living, the living, he shall praise thee, as I do this day: the father to the children shall make known thy truth."

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    1. Actually, predisposed to heresy should not be the grounds by which any man or woman of God decides to pursue...the supernatural! Jesus did not write but we know He was clearly of God, therefore His word was truth. If Bill is credible, which to my sight he has not only credibility but understanding as well....he should be included with the grace to speak, written or oral. If it seems there are delusions in him, then by God let a man judge the prophecies...but if he's in line and adding dimensional approaches which are hidden, yet concealed to be found as he puts it, then we should agree to test no more, since he has proven himself trustworthy

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  86. I'm sorry. But if my mother or father did have a great ministry and an incredible anointing, I still would have a problem with someone standing or laying on their graves trying to "suck up" an anointing! What is wrong with this picture?

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  87. Hmm...I guess I can see how mysticism certainly proliferates confusion...nevertheless, they carried the bones of the fathers all day long. Joseph, etc...the Bible says very explicit definitions for honoring spiritual parents. Per se, when you do, whether that's by literally carrying bones or actually teaching their remnants, either would cause the glory to rest if you were in fear of Jesus rather than stipulations to "simply get anointed". I actually dreamed of attending a grave site that I will remain undisclosed to for my own preference" which I have not done yet could foresee an eternal blessing not by works but through the apostles anointing that I believe this person carried...if I work alone, I am my own source for income, or spiritual tokens...however, when I glory in the cross, am I not receiving His benefits from His body? How does that differ...

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  88. Paul sent the anointing for healing on his nose hanky... Cars aren't quite Biblical either but we still drive them to church. I'm so tired of hearing people's mudslinging other Christians. Give it a break. There are plenty of brothers and sisters who don't believe everything you do to the letter. I think people are more envious of their zeal and hunger for the Lord which is something I think is suffering in the church today... and perhaps is more devastating to the church then what these perhaps misguided youth are doing.

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  89. I've read several of Bill Johnson's books, listened to weekly sermons, heard him preach and teach in person, and participated in video conferences in which he presented. My experience is that he a is Bible-preaching & Bible-teaching leader who consistently points everyone to Jesus Christ. He readily points out that the results of healings, signs, wonders, and miracles are salvations and increased faith in God. My personal experience in supernatural ministry (as modeled by Bethel and Global Awakening and others similar) is that everyone who is healed wants to put their trust in this Jesus Who just healed them. And the ones who aren't healed in my presence are loved with the love of Daddy God, manifested by the power of the Holy Spirit in me. I only write this to bring some balance to many of the comments here that demonize Bill Johnson. Far from demonic, Bill is helping to raise up a generation of revivalists, who by the power of the Holy Spirit can sustain renewal long-term, pointing the world to Lord Jesus, the precious Holy Spirit, and Father God.

    Could BSSM students be seeking the Anointing in the wrong place? It seems like it. Could their faith in God give them freedom and passion to do something that looks pretty weird to us? Probably.

    Bethel does teach the fear of God. But the fear of man isn't a part of their culture. I think what you've described simply stems out of passionate lovers of God willing to take risks as they exercise their faith even at risk of getting it wrong. If you step out in faith and get something wrong God's still pleased with your faith.

    What if a seemingly odd act of faith--believing for receiving an anointing for healing from the Spirit of God by laying on someone's grave--moved God to impart exactly what you had faith for?

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    1. Nonsense, Jesus does not need anyone to lay on a grave to receive a healing anointing. Keep the good, spit out the bad, that is what all of us are called to do. Cast down imaginations that would exalt themselves against the knowledge
      of God, if someone is in error, restore them with a proper attitude. Pray for them.

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  90. Hey guys. Great article and site. I may have to link to this article and some others in the days to come. I appreciate this post as it strikes home in so many ways. I come form a church that did these types of strange things and attributed it to the LORD. This bazaar practice of laying on graves to receive is all new to me, but I have seen all of the other practices you typically see in these hyper-charismatic/ New Apostolic Reformation/ Word of Faith type movements. Some of the previous comments seemed to indicate that people are really being healed and turning to Christ. I do believe and have seen some have a conversion experience during these "Holy Spirit" encounters, but in my experience, nearly every one of them falls away in the years to come. Why? Because they are not given the gospel. They come to Christ to see what he can do for them and not because they are sinners in need of a savior. Furthermore, why are all the so called healings involving something that cannot be seen. These healings never involve an ailment that can be seen with the naked eye, like the growing of a new limb, or tooth, or eye...you get the point. I have yet to be convinced that any of these so called healings are real. I do believe that God can heal, but I have never seen Him use any of the false prophets and false teachers of this movement. Are we to expect that God would use false teachers like Bill Johnson who has uttered false prophecies, taught abhorrent unbiblical teachings like the health and wealth gospel, and has gotten his congregation involved in mystic new age practices to produce miracles signs and wonders? These are guys who claim to have daily conversations with God and yet they are riddled with bad doctrine and false prophecies. Many of them have gotten caught up in all kinds of sexual scandals. Even the teachers in this movement seem to be plagued with physical ailments. I'm just not seeing it friends. Lets get back to God and His confirmed Word. Lets not add to His word. Lets stop making His followers look silly by doing these odd things. And most importantly, lets stop trying to change the culture through unbiblical ideas like the 7 mountain mandate and lets change our culture (one soul at a time) though the preaching of the gospel. If you would like to learn more about the Word of Faith movement, the New Apostolic Reformation and what God's word says about these types of practices, come to http://youthapologeticstraining.com There are numerous articles and free podcasts to help you work through some of these difficult problems. God Bless

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  91. Words like be Ye not defiled for the Dead comes to mine, And Be Ye Holy as I am Holy.
    If one is defiled, they are not Holy (Set Apart)! Unclean unclean unclean!

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  92. Drew,
    it's almost like you're saying that if we put "revival' in a glass jar with the right kind of rubber seal under the lid, it won't go off!? You can't 'preserve' the move of God. When we look at what happened with Gideon - he was a man bowed down by fear, hiding in a barn, with a last morsel of food, ready to give up and die.

    So many Christians are just like him today. They have taken the false prophets at their word (usually a twisted version of God's word) and then they finally find out that it was false and they were let down by some religious con man. They too, want to go and 'hide' and watch that last 'morsel' of a DVD they got from the conference, thinking it will sustain them for a time. They they have no explanation for their plight.

    They try all the tricks that the false prophet taught them (usually on well funded TV stations, while the "ministry" gives forth from their home based TV studio, right next door to the 4 story mansion, which houses several large cars, a swimming pool, a helicopter, and other opulent surroundings.)

    They desperately try to use :"faith filled words" to 'confess' their way out of the jam, only to finally realise that they have "exchanged the truth of God for a lie" - a big fat one! It's too late to ask the false prophet for a refund on his 'ministry', as he's already spent the money on 'expanding the ministry'.

    He's gone to other far flung places, like Third World countries, where the people over there are uneducated and even more desperate than this latest TV "Gideon" who is now forced to hide inside his own barn (house) for fear of what the neighbours might think about fake healings and failed prophecies, that he was only recently skiting about.

    For Gideon, God did come through with a mighty victory over the Midianites. But Gideon had to put his faith in God. It started with the sacrifice in front of the angel, and ended up with a band of just 300 men who routed an entire army and spoiled their camp, taking home much that would sustain them because GOD had given them the victory.

    But there was just one thing that didn't seem right to everyone after the "revival" had died down. Gideon had asked for everybody elses' gold, as his share of the spoils of war, and they gave it to him willingly (maybe that was a "tithe'?) But what did he do with it (the money - the stuff that comes into the back room each Sunday, stuffed into 10 litre plastic buckets?)

    He created an Ephod - which became an idol, and the Bible says of Gideon and his generation, that:

    "And Gideon made an Ephod thereof, and put it in his city, even in Ophrah: and all Israel went thither a whoring after it: which thing became a snare unto Gideon, and to his house." (Judges 8:27)

    What God can do with us is amazing when we trust Him. What we do with what He gives us, can be devastating.

    Do yourselves a favour folks, take note of how Gideon started, and of how he also ended up. Stay away from "Pastor Gideons" church, no matter how much 'gold' there seems to be there in the midst. Otherwise you might just find yourself becoming an idolater, along with all the rest.

    Austin Hellier
    Brisbane, Australia

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  93. I am a BSSM alumni. This is hilarious. Everyone on here is arguing about theology. WELL. We can all agree that JESUS is LORD and EVERYONE NEEDS SALVATION. So, instead of logging on and bashing movements (or heresy as some of you call it). Let's go see some people saved! Amen?

    P.S. By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? Matt 7:16. I have seen MANY hearings under the glorious name of Jesus! Glory to God! I am very thankful for teachings that enabled me to see hearings just like Jesus!

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  94. Agreed, Drew, I've seen some pretty horrible fruit off of the bush of John Crowder.

    Pointing out alarming trends in the church is not bashing. Criticizing those who do so IS bashing. Do you have any thing constructive to add to the conversation?

    I'll get things started- have you ever laid on a grave to receive an impartation or mantle?

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  95. Jesus just did the will of the father, he never accused people of the wrong they were doing, unless they were a Pharisee and even at that he was very gracious. My point is, if God hasn't punished these people, why are you?

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  96. I'm so thankful to God for John Crowder's ministry. Probably many people misunderstood many things, because of their paradigms. For example... if we take the Bible.. a lot of crazy things happened there. Surely there are nothing about stigmata or about gold dust appearing (Jesus told that we can see the greater things, my bible doesn't say people get healed through the internet, though I prayed and have seen those things happening, that doesn't make it unnecessarily of the devil. And remember in those times people didn't have Scriptures to discern... when Divine manifested, they had no doubt. Just because people act like crazy and wild and strange and offensive to "moral understanding", it doesn't make it somehow demonic... Read your Bible, hundreds of strange cases there that were happening with them. Though nobody is judging Apostle Paul or Peter for falling in Divine Ecstasy. What about other things... About graves.. If you remember Elijah's bones rose up the dead man... And those people (may be they do it wierd in hippie way, Crowder and Benn Dunn themselves, they said that they did a lot of wierd and stupid things, while being under God's Presence...) they just put faith that there's still anointing on the graves of God's people. I'm not saying is it "good or bad", because there's nothing about in the Bible. And important is not outward act or moral looking, but what's in the heart of those people. I went to John's meeting couple times and what fascinated me that he's not talking about "occult mysticism", but he's preaching out the finished work of the Cross, like Joseph Prince, and even more powerful way. There's a lot of joy, peace and righteousness.. Love flowing on people, God's glory manifesting, people cannot stand (like priests in Solomon temple while service... they couldn't stand... and not all things are described in the Bible about manifestations, so it's no hurry to judge on that topic, in case that even Apostle's didn't talk about it much.... they didn't not reffer to "methods" or outward spiritual manifests, but on teaching itself... what people preach. And just taking certain person and pissing it off using verses out of Bible is not "discernment" all. Not wise move at all! Discernment is not in knowledge, but in heart, in the Spirit, through God's giftings, it may need a revelation from God to check the fruits of that ministry, to read, to give time to folks and ask God personally. The better way is to go on the meeting or get to talk to those people itself. And you will find out WHAT? They Love unconditionally just like Jesus, they move in Grace... they are very gentle, full of fruit's of the Spirit, they feel the Presence of God and they spread the manifestation of it... people get healed and delivered... they know much of epistles of Paul and the True Grace Message of the Gospel about the finished work of the Cross. And what I'm talking is from the personal experience... I studied the Bible and even asked the Lord. I read John's books and many things were confirmed to me by God Himself, not greek mind religious philosophy to yak on something you don't understand. God bless everyone!

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  97. It breaks my heart that Christian's continue to come against each other like this. Why can't we choose to celebrate the good each other do rather than slander them for the bad...or at least for what we think is bad because we don't understand. No wonder so many people dislike Christian's...we can't even get along ourselves. It's heartbreaking. So you may not agree with this church, that doesn't mean that they're wrong. Are you God? Do you know their hearts? Do you know how their personal relationship is with Him? We have to STOP criticizing things just because we don't understand them. If we criticize people because we don't understand what's happening, how are we ANY different from the pharisee's that Jesus so often and openly rebuked? The Pharisee's constantly came against Jesus and His disciples claiming that His signs and wonders were of the devil. They said all of this just because they didn't understand. We must be careful not to slip into the same patterns.
    I think it's time for us to focus on our OWN walk with God, and trust God to take care of the rest. Taking time out of your day to write a whole blog on what these people are doing wrong, rather than celebrate what they're doing right is what concerns me the more than what they're doing wrong. How is that LOVE?!
    LOVE IS PATIENT: Now I must ask....are you all being patient with these Christian's you disagree with. Patient with them as they work all this out?
    LOVE IS KIND: How is this post kind? =(
    Love does not envy, doesn't boast, isn't proud
    Love does not dishonor others, is not self-seeking, is not easy angered, and keeps no records of wrongs: This post seems dishonoring and keeping a record of wrongs.
    Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth: Why can't we just rejoice in the fact that JESUS IS LORD. That IS the truth, and Bethel and BSSM both promote that. I would say that's rejoicing.
    Love always protects, always trusts, always hopes, and always perseveres: I don't see you protecting your Christian brother and sisters in this post. Nor hoping the best out of them. Nor trusting that God will take care of it if it needs taken care of.
    It just breaks my heart.
    Can we PLEASE try to keep the main thing the main thing? JESUS IS LORD. It's JESUS!
    I came across your blog while I'm doing research for a report I'm doing on Maria Woodworth-Etter...so since I'm researching her...I'll leave you with her quote....

    "His ambassadors must stop all the contention, all hair-splitting theories must be dropped; this hobby and that hobby with continual harping on finished work or sanctification that antagonizes the saints must be put away. Paul says preaching has to be with demonstration of the Spirit and of power... Let the Word go forth in demonstration and power so people can see what God has for them."

    I sincerely love you all, and I'm just sharing what I'm sharing because I long for Christian's to unite once again. Don't you realize that one of the biggest ways the enemy battle's God is by tearing His children apart? So let's kick that devil in the teeth and come together. We may not always get along....but we're family. Family doesn't always agree, but they love each other enough to not be "self seeking" and to let it go, knowing they still love them. Can we please do the same? For the sake of all those lost people out there....please.

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    1. Obviously you are reflecting the Bill Johnson doctrine of gathering around fathers not around doctrine. This is a man centered idea, not a biblical idea, but it serves him well.

      Why do I even bring up atrocious stuff (grave sucking) like that discussed in this article ? Quoting my friend Christine Pack:

      The New Testament model for dealing with public teaching that is false or unbiblical is to publicly challenge and rebuke the teaching, and contend for truth.

      "Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt compelled to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to God’s holy people." (Jude 3)

      Of course, we aim and strive to speak the truth in love, but sadly, most of the church today has bought into the idea that challenging ANY idea is unloving and wrong. We adamantly reject this view. In fact, we think the essence of being loving is to point people to the truth, and away from lies and doctrines of demons. It is truth that sets people free. Lies cannot set people free.

      So, if you are defending grave-sucking, I''ve got a problem wit that, and if you are defending a doctrine-less (bible teaching -less) church, I've got a problem with that.

      The main reason that individuals are mentioned is that no one would believe that this stuff is happening if it were not documented.

      Since you care so much about this subject, and are now researching Etter, I just have to ask- have you gone to her grave yet to receive an impartation? Do you intend to? Have you gone to other graves and done the same?

      Let's discuss this; I will agree to not make it personal.

      I seriously wonder what Maria Woodworth-Etter would think about the practice of grave-sucking. I suspect she would not approve.

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    2. We want to thank you all so much who on this blog have taken a stand for truth. We know that it is not easy. We would all much rather get on with loving each other as Jesus commanded, and preaching the wonderful gospel of the Kingdom.
      We all need to understand that deception is usually a mixture of truth and error or lies. If it were not so, the deception would hardly be plausible. We are called to test the spirits. The hallmark of an evil spirit is that it lies. A lying spirit lies to you, and you speak it out. Bill Johnson lies in his preaching.
      Here is just one example. In his teaching on 'Power and Authority'. Bill exaggerates the significance of the Holy Spirit coming upon Jesus at his Baptism. He does this in order to confirm his heretical teaching that when Jesus came to earth, he laid down his deity and became merely a man. He teaches that He was later born again at his resurrection. Bill feels the need to adhere to this ancient heresy to help us identify with Jesus. He argues that if Jesus was God it would not be fair of Him to expect us to do the same works as He did. It is of course true that Jesus laid down his power, majesty and glory, but how could it be possible for Him to deny His identity? He was and always has been God, a member of the trinity. At no time did He ever cease to be so. In order to deceive his listeners into believing the heresy he needs to make it appear that the event of the Holy Spirit's coming upon Jesus at His baptism, was much more than a foreshadowing of the Holy Spirit coming upon us at salvation. He must make it look as if Jesus needed a supernatural empowering in order to be more than just the man that He had become, and so he lies about the meaning of the word 'open' in Greek. He says that the Greek word used for 'open'. when the heavens opened and the Spirit descended in the form of a dove, does not mean just 'open'. It means a mighty rending of the heavens. This is a lie. The word in Greek means simply' open'. You can see the same word on a shop door in Greece telling you that the shop is open. Bill teaches that it is the same word as is used when the veil of the temple was torn in two. This is a lie. A totally different word is used. The word used in that context means, 'slit'. We get our word schism from it, a dividing or parting. How can it be that the Holy Spirit is operating through a man who denies the divinity of Jesus while on earth, and lies in order to prove it?
      Bill finishes this teaching by cunningly exorting us all not to misunderstand Him. He says that Jesus was and always has been God's Son, but he has not retracted his heresy, rather teaches error to confirm it. When I heard this teaching, I was astonished that he dared to make such easily detectable false claims - you can easily check it out with a concordance. The only conclusion that I can come to is that he is confidant that none of his disciples would be bothered to do so.
      My advice - give this man and all those that have drunk from the same well of deception a wide berth. god does not need to deceive in order to perform signs and wonders through His children.

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  98. Bill .. you rock brother. Keep telling it as it is, boss.

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  99. Can anyone imagine Jesus appearing to them, and saying? “I died on the cross for you and rose from the dead, now I am seated at the right hand of the Father and you are seated with me, I want you to know the I wrote in my word that the same power that was demonstrated when I rose from the dead is now available to everyone who believes in me. I have already given you all things pertaining unto life and godliness. I also let everyone know while I walked the earth that all they need to do to receive the Holy Spirit is ask, I let everyone know that if they keep my word in their hearts that the Father would manifest himself to them. Oops, sorry, although, I laid out clear instructions under my New Contract with you, I forgot one thing, you need to go lay on a gravesite for all this to be complete.
    Can you imagine him then saying?” I have risen up a special servant with this desperately needed message, no matter what my servant says to teach you, be sure to honor my servant at all cost, I know my servant Paul said, “Only follow me as I follow Christ”. I know my word states to search the scripture to see if what you are hearing is true, however this is my very “so special” servant. “
    Can you imagine Jesus then saying? “I want you to love no matter what, what I mean by this is; even if you see people you love believing lies, laying on graves and receiving demon spirits or sitting under false teachers, if you see your friends walking out from under the protection of my covenant of grace and destroying their lives. Don’t say a thing, my definition of love is that you stand by idle and do not say a thing to them.”

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  100. Jesus was called the devil by the pharisees. Jesus hung out with other people that they didn't approve... didn't have good reputations and so on. When confronted by the religious leaders about the women who was caught in adultery what did he say? Jesus came to show is the Father. He did things that people didn't understand... especially the religiously intellect that based their whole worship on the Word, without knowing or experiencing Him (the Word) with His Word. You can't fully know your spouse just through words they have written and you can't fully know them through experience alone but through both....experiencing them and discovering their inmost thoughts and values that they have "written"/"said". Jesus said preach the Kingdom, the "King's domain"....which is healing the sick, casting out devils, raising the dead." He said signs and wonders would follow those that would believe that what He said He would do through them, He would do. Our relationship with Father stems from His Word, awakening us to more of Him and we are continually growing in our relationship and understanding for who can understand the mysteries of God. We are all United in Christian whether we like each other, agree with each other or not. God said there is one body and many parts. We aren't going to have it ALL right but He has it ALL right and if His Word that created the heavens and the earth, called us into being and did the same things today like he did throughout the whole Bible isn't demonstrating Who He was, is and will be, then we are terribly mistaken and the whole world is without hope. We all know our God is alive and active, let's ask Him to start speaking us like He did with Samuel and many others, let us ask Him to turn our hearts to worship like David and to be pure and to be in right standing and to believe what He s Ai d like Abraham and yo lead people out of bondage like Moses ...and to become more like Him by following Him and being close to Him like the disciples so we can re present Him well to the world around us. Some of this might be ill typed due to auto correct but I hope the overall message came across. Christ as a body does not want us divided. The Truth is we will probably never be United on earth in doctrine but in Heaven we will be bc we will see Him and know Him more clearly. However, he calls us to be United in love...which is laid out plainly in 1 Corinthians. If you read 1 Corinthians straight through, He addresses this whole thing at how we may not agree but how to treat one another in love. Love is not proud (thinking yourself above others in any way), it does not boast (I did this, I am right, etc), it keeps no records of wrongs.....read this chapter. It is a challenge to us all. The Bible says watch out for false apostles but doesn't say preach it ...He said preach His Kingdom. Don't get wrapped up in our own agenda when Jesus clearly demonstrated what our agenda should be. Deal w problems as they approach you, take authority over it and go on preaching and releasing the Kingdom. F aether said love wins. Many people today are so disgusted by people's debates within the body that they don't want anything to do with it....it is obvious why he told us to preach the Kingdom and to deal qith division in love. Who wants division? No one! People want peace, love, joy, righteousness, relationship. He is the Desire of the Nation's let's do what He says so He is clearly seen for who He is so they will come to know Him as He is.

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  101. So do u tell them that personally or disgrace them publically

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  102. read 1st Corinthians. God's definition of love is made very clear.

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  103. To an extent, yes. the Lord has given us our free will aNd our free choice. He never argued, debated or forced anyone into His kingdom. I agree with you wholeheartedly that we are always supposed to search the scripture and make sure that it aligns with truth. ALWAYS! it is HISdefinition of love, not ours.

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