Wednesday, November 21, 2012

IHOP: Signs of a Cult

In response to the revelation of cultish activity in the midst of IHOP, Mike Bickle has gone into full-blown damage control. And despite their earlier protests, Bickle has admitted that "we’re living in the midst of a cult being in our midst recently."  "In our midst"  (was "entirely independently" on November 12). As a result, he is now teaching on how to recognize a cult.  To our friends who predictably tell us not to judge - hold on - Bickle now approves of this process, stating:

"We want all to be equipped to see and expose deception, to help others avoid it. We must warn and rescue those who are involved in false teaching and practice by teaching them the truth."

To that we say, "Amen!" Let's examine Bickle's teachings on the characteristics of a cult, and see how IHOP fits in with this. At Bickle's invitation.

In our response we will be relying heavily on  IHOP's Blueprint Prophecy, in it's sundry versions. The Blueprint Prophecy is the foundational document of IHOP, and is given near-cannonical credence. The author has never been revealed, and Bickle has refused to let the body of Christ judge this prophetic word in its entirety, preferring to hold back certain elements of the prophecy. And this foundational "word from the Lord" has been revised several times. Go figure.

The prophecy starts out stating that one should wait until God confirmed this prophecy in your spirit. That should raise some red flags immediately. We test prophecy primarily against the Word, not some "burning in the bosom" as do the Mormons.


Let's look now at some the elements of a cult and see where IHOP
 has been "weighed and found wanting."



"A cult is a group that deviates from the doctrines and practices of historic Christianity and has an inordinate loyalty to one leader, whose beliefs are not found in Scripture (as affirmed by historic Christianity)."  (3 parts)


1. Historic Christianity

IHOP has certainly deviated from the ordinary practices of Christianity, with their Latter Rain emphasis on restoring the Tabernacle of David, and the entire concept of IHOP, 24/7 prayer, and "prayer missionaries." In 1982, Mike Bickle received a prophetic word that said "I (the Lord) will change the understanding and expression of Christianity in one generation." This has been the goal and the mission of Bickle's ministry since that point. You cannot claim orthodoxy and change at the same time.

The Latter-Rain movement has never been recognized as orthodox Christianity, yet the Blueprint prophecy states of his movement:

"The Out-Pouring of the Latter Rain shall be released in this area and upon this city. It shall be noised abroad even world-wide. They will stand in awe and will return unto the Holy reverence of My Name and of My people."  (Blueprint quotes are in Blue)

This is not a matter of shared terminology. The practices of IHOP are the practices of the New Order of the Latter Rain. Note also this from the Blueprint Prophecy:

"I will take people in the Spirit and catch them away in the Spirit…it shall be by Me and I shall teach them in new ways."

People in this movement talk about visiting heaven and even teleporting. One of the foundational prophets of the movement, Bob Jones, claims to visit heaven often, sometimes several times a day. This is not "Historic Christianity."


2. Loyalty to One Leader

When you say IHOP you say Mike Bickle. I heard one IHOPper recently dismiss a controversial statement by IHOP leader Lou Engle by stating that that was Lou's statement and does not represent IHOP doctrine (it did). Apparently, the only leader qualified to represent IHOP is Mike Bickle. In the past, Bickle's teachings were on the fotb website. In recent years, they have developed a special website archiving the history and teachings of IHOP. It is called MikeBickle.org.

Needless to say, this end-time Apostle, commissioned by Jesus himself - in heaven - is held in high esteem at IHOP. Heaven you say? Yes, in a courtroom that was built of clouds. While Bickle is in this courtroom a "whole line of" golden chariots appear. He saw men with those chariots and he believed those to be the 35 or so "super-apostles" that the Lord had previously told Bob Jones would be birthed out of his movement. A chariot appeared and "the Lord said 'get in it' and I knew intuitively, instantly it was an Apostolic ministry."


3. Beliefs not found in Scripture (as affirmed by historic Christianity)

For starters, the Blueprint Prophecy, the foundational document of IHOP, is not found in scripture nor is it affirmed by historic Christianity. Many of the beliefs of IHOP are also not found in scripture or affirmed by historic Christianity.

  • That prior to the return of Jesus, and as a necessary condition of Christ’s return - apostles and prophets of unparalleled spiritual power, and prophetic accuracy will arise to guide the church into its final days.

  • That a ‘perfected church’ walking in unparalleled supernatural power (raising the dead will become ordinary, and no illness will be able to stand before this perfected church), will arise as a pre-condition of Christ’s return.

  • Prior to the return of Christ, a special class of Christians called ‘forerunners’ will be raised up to prepare the church for the return of Christ.

  • IHOP teaches as a pre-condition of the return of Christ, the church must be crying out 24/7 ‘Come, Lord, Jesus Come with a full understanding of the so-called ‘ bridal identity’.



  • "False teachers pervert the teaching about the grace of God by legalism or lewdness. False teachers do not hold to the main and plain doctrines of Scripture."

    The over-emphasis on the so-called Bridal Paradigm has led to a sensual vocabulary at IHOP. They speak of being "lovesick" and "ravished." Matt Gilman, at an IHOP conference sang "so heaven meets earth like a sloppy wet kiss." At another conference thousands were "married" to Christ. Back in 2009 we were hearing reports of men speaking of being "ravished in their hinder parts" by Jesus. The over-emphasis of this teaching, based on an over-allergorization of the Song of Songs, coupled with thousands of young people living in over-crowded settings has led to where IHOP is today. Yes, I'd call it lewdness.

    Bickle's convoluted teachings on the Song of Songs lie in contrast to the simple (plain) understanding of the book by the Historic church. Bickle's "Bridal Paradigm" is his signature doctrine, and this is in part because it is unique to him.



    "Their members must accept what the cult leader believes without ever challenging their doctrines. They do not want their members to think critically for themselves."

    In almost 10 years of studying and dialoging with IHOPpers, almost universally they do not to put the teachings and practices of IHOP up for discussion. I have been told by some that they did not want to even hear it. Other's routinely throw scriptures about judging in your face (see recent comments on this blog for examples).

    IHOP places a lot of stock in it's prophetic history, but there is a lot about IHOP's history that is conveniently left out of those lessons. When these things are brought up, again the typical response is "you're judging." When told that we are to test things by the scriptures (as a Berean) one is most often called a "pharisee." One pejorative unique to IHOP seems to the the term "scoffer" which they apply to anyone who does not "get it."

    IHOP also uses the term "rabid dogs" to describe Christians who don't understand the special end-times assignment of the IHOP elite. Mike Bickle again, recounting a prophetic vision:

    “I was in the riverbed with my brother Pat. And there were dogs with rabies on both sides of the riverbed. They were barking. There was only 4 inches of water but a rabid dog cannot get in water. And the Lord told Bob ‘These (dogs) are like righteous men; even in the body of Christ. They will bark and they will accuse and they will put down this purpose of this young adult prayer movement…because they won’t understand it…because we have such a focused assignment from the Lord.”



    "The members are often required to cut ties with their family."

    Anecdotally, more than a few stories have come out of IHOP stating that this was done. Oddly, we are not hearing this about similar places like Bethel or Toronto. And we hear stories of parents who contact IHOP with concerns that are brushed off. Not all of these stories are totally accurate, of course, but there seems to be a pattern.



    "They isolate their people from their families, the church and society."

    A case could easily be made that the demands of the prayer room roster (the "sacred trust"), and the mentality of being "forerunners" has done just that. IHOP prayer missionaries are expected to raise their own support - the typical model being asking for donations - in order to serve full-time as intercessors and worshippers. This removes them from society, and from their family and church back home when they move to Kansas City, the new Jerusalem. This isolation is made worse by the night watch shifts and lack of sleep.Anyone who thinks that the IHOPpers are not a close-knit, isolated group, need only look back to the Blueprint Prophecy and see that this is by design:

    "Their responsibility lies within Me and their safety lies within drawing close together. Yes, I would have them draw real close together. I say unto you again, that their safety lies in drawing real close together."



    "Cults cross biblical boundaries of behavior especially in immorality and finances."

    Immorality has been part of IHOP's history from the start. First there was the homosexual prophet Augustine Alcala (who later died of aids). Then there was prophet Bob Jones asking women to disrobe while he prophesied to them. And the alcoholic prophet Paul Cain sodomizing boys at IHOP's Shiloh retreat center. These three "prophets" were instrumental in building the foundation of corruption at IHOP. And these stories, if even mentioned in the "Prophetic History" lessons, are glossed over as quickly as possible.

    The recent sex-and-murder scandal is just another in a long string of sorid stories coming out of IHOP. Note that Tyler Deaton, one of IHOP's "division coordinators" on their Friendship Groups administrative team, had been at IHOPKC for four years. I suspect that we will find that pornography played a role in that man's fall, and I'm hearing reports of other students with similar issues.

    Statements in the Blueprint Prophecy about finances should raise much concern. 

    "I shall be your purse bearer. I shall raise up ministers of finance in this area.
    I will hand the checks and the money as the time is prepared for this."


    Ok, so the funding is supernatural. But some of the practices, such as post-it notes on donation checks is not. And questions have arisen regarding Diane Bickle's "Gladheart Realty" and it's close association with this not-for-profit organization." And here's a quote from Bickle's associate Bob Fraizer, speaking of those "ministers of finance."

    "The Treasure Bringers are those with an anointing from God to facilitate this massive wealth-transfer. They are spiritual 'Robin Hoods.' Their greatest joy is plundering the wealth of the world for their Lord."



    "Cults separate from the wider Church and operate with an elite spirit, believing
    that they alone have a special status with God."

    Charges of elitism at IHOP (and its predecessors) go back a long way. Ernie Gruen leveled such a charge, and Bickle admitted it was true.  Elitism is built into IHOP's foundation. After all, when you are going to change the understanding and expression of Christianity, it should be obvious that you "get it" and the rest of the church does not. IHOP has taught the Jones and Cain doctrines of the Manifested Sons of God. They also call themselves "forerunners." In 1983 Mike Bickle stated :

    "I believe that this is the generation that God has ordained before the beginning of the world to usher in the presence of His Son."

    The generation that Bickle speaks of are the same as Bob Jones' chosen seed. These are the ones who come to IHOP. Bickle separates himself from the church - at one time (speaking of pre-trib theology) he stated to the youth of America "your pastors are lying."   Bickle, like Rick Joyner, believes there will be a great confrontation in the church, as the true believers triumph over the nominal believers. Bickle again:

    "Many will fall because of this thing, because their hearts are not truly God’s, they’re in the church only in terms of sitting on a pew on Sunday morning. Many of them sit on church on Sunday morning and they will rise, because they will receive. He said it will be a sign that will be opposed throughout the whole earth. The move of God that’s coming will have great opposition because in verse 35, it says the-the end of this is that the thoughts of many hearts will be revealed when the move of God comes. Because you see when God’s move comes, there is a confrontation."

    Elitism is by design at IHOP- it is established in the Blueprint Prophecy:

    "Even out of the loins of the blood line of the flesh of Abraham--even as I said
    there would be many seeds and many nations, kindred, and tongues… I shall
    raise up and there shall flow forth many sons and daughters. They shall be
    known and renowned. Even as the children of the renowned – shall they be."

    The "known and renowned" part echos the teachings about "dread champions" by Paul Cain, who is a foundational prophet of IHOP.

    This is just an overview. I urge you to study Mike Bickle's teaching on cults, study his Blueprint Prophecy and the foundations of IHOP and see just how he has defined his own movement.

    Learn more about IHOP.
    Read about the Blueprint Prophecy.
    2012 Version of 7 signs following Deaton's death
    2009 Version of 7 signs following Candler's death
    Read Ariel's testimony "Why I believe IHOP is a Cult."


    "We want all to be equipped to see and expose deception, to help others avoid it.
    We must warn and rescue those who are involved in false teaching
    and practice by teaching them the truth." - Mike Bickle

    31 comments:

    1. So, do you want to make any guesses on how long it will be before somebody comes on this thread and says, "don't judge"??? :)

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    2. Bill, this, as usual is very concise and factual, thank you again,
      -Chad

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    3. "When you say IHOP you say Mike Bickle"
      This is a accurate insight and once a person accepts this, allows themselves to see what they see and think what they think a lot of delusion starts to fall away.
      I find it ironic that the charismatic, manipulative, controlling Mike Bickle is NOW teaching his followers how to recognize a cult???? He is leading one.
      There is ZERO discernment among these self proclaimed Apostolic/Prophetic groups. If they were true Prophets, wouldn't one of them have recieved a word from the Lord warning them about this sin and perversion in their midst? They are deceived and deceiving the naive and gullible.
      I pray as many people as possible are set free from these dangerous, deceptive groups and their leaders. These guys are building their own vision, all the while proclaiming it is the Lord's and using a whole lot of people and their money, time and lives to do it.
      Sad, sad sad......now there is a DEAD young woman and STILL people are defending Bickle and IHOP.
      It would be mercy if the entire thing just shut down.

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      1. This comment has been removed by the author.

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    4. I do not need to defend Mike Bickle because I believe his work with Ihop is remarkable and that Ihop will go on without him, it is not about the man Mike Bickle it is about the man Lord Jesus Christ. This article has many made up fabrications and lies concerning Ihop that are more numerous than I have time to explain, I will only address one, the 7 characteristics of a cult is not a new teaching, if you would have done your homework you will find this has been around for many years. I was in a cult and Ihop certainly is far from being a cult.

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    5. Marc,

      Bickle's recent presentation of this teaching on November 17th is obviously a rehash of a teaching given August 28, 2009. Make nomistake about it, his presentation on November 17th was reactionary. That was all I was saying.

      There are no made up fabrications or lies in this article; I have the documentation to back every statement up. But since you have called a brother a liar, this is in your court- prove it or apologize.

      I'm man enough to admit when I have made a mistake; are you? I will gladly correct any inaccuracies in this article.

      Thanks!

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      1. Show us the documentation before spouting more of these lies and deceits.

        Not everyone who called themselves a brother is a brother. Show us the proof.

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      2. I thought the hyper-links were sufficient. The claims made in this article are all substantiated in other article on this site. Again, don't call me a liar- which point are you questioning and we will then have a civil discussion. I'll be glad to furnish backup documentation for each and every point. Seriously; it's all true.

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      3. Claims made in this article are based on the subjective interpretation of the "so called" evidence. These type of claims created much damage to the body of Christ because they're based out of subjective interpretation and perception.

        For example, Mike doesn't go over ALL THE EVIDENCE AND CONFIRMATION from the LORD to start IHOP each and every time he speaks on the subject due to time constraints; he DID iterate and re-iterate THIS MANY TIMES during his sermons. THIS IS NOT EVIDENCE ENOUGH to discredit how IHOP is commissioned by the LORD.

        What is 'historic christianity'? Do you not know how protestant church came to existence? If what comes out of history 'must be' the "legit format"/"truth" , then why did Jesus condamn the Pharsees? Have you any idea why the Jews still doesn't accept Jesus as the Messiah? Do you not see "history" doesn't always necessitate Truth?

        Where in the Bible does it say "We test prophecy primarily against the Word"? Paul mentions that we test the spirit by whether it acknowledges Jesus is the Christ. Prophecy is tested whether it comes to past or not (Deu18:22) We are given more light as the LORD reveal more of himself and the prophecy spoke through his prophets. You will acknowledge the new light if you are born of GOD; this is how we accepted Jesus being the Messiah, unlike many Jews.

        A Christian shouldn't simply hanging on to the old understanding of the basic doctrines that's been revealed long ago, but through continuing fellowship and guidance of the Holy Spirit that more understanding of the Truth may be revealed (Jh16:13)

        People need to start walking with the LORD every day. Talk and ask him what is on his heart. Following the LORD is to not lean on their own understanding, but to trust him by faith. Then, they will KNOW the Truth.

        These so called substantiation is nothing more than subjective interpretation of the events. Even so, these events are not always depicted objectively. Yes, I will be more than happy to discuss ANY concerns you may have

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      4. jj, quoting Bickle and his foundational documents- which seem to place IHOP in the category of a cult, is FAR less subjective than you asking the Lord (or me asking the Lord) because I'm guessing we might hear different things.

        But you objection is still far too broad - is there a particular point that I have made that you believe to be a mis-statement? I'm willing to look at this point by point, and if necessary provide further documentation.

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      5. Acts 17:10–11:
        10 As soon as it was night, the brothers sent Paul and Silas away to Berea. On arriving there, they went to the Jewish synagogue.
        11 Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.

        This shows that even Paul’s teaching was subjected to the test of Scripture by people who were commended for it. So Christians today should follow that Berean example and test the teachings of any church (or scientist) by Scripture.

        2 Pet. 1:20–21:
        20 Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation.

        21 For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.

        Note: The chief Apostle, Peter, believed that God moved (literally ‘carried along’) the writers of Scripture so that they recorded exactly what He wanted. However, God did not usually dictate the words, but superintended the authors so that, using their own individual personalities, they recorded His revelation without error.

        Jude 3: ‘Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt I had to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to the saints.’

        N.B. If the faith was once delivered, then there is no need for additional revelations of doctrine after the canon of scripture was closed).

        Tim

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      6. Yes, teaching is to be tested against Scriptures according to Act 17:11 (even Paul's teaching!) but the prophecy of the Scriptures is to be revealed for "no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet's own interpretation"(2Pet1:20,21.)

        Holy Scriptures does include prophecy, but not just prophecy e.g. Kings, Chronicles and Acts are history books. Men are carried along by God when prophecy is spoken; so IT IS GOD who is speaking. But the "history/event books" in the Holy Scripture does reflect individual personalities.

        Faith is not to be confused with revelation. Faith belongs to us; we have to believe what God says (include all words been spoken as well as prophecy) and stand on his word i.e. our response to prophecy/what's been spoken and promised (Hebrew 11) But revelation belongs to GOD (include the MEANING of the word as well as the INTERPRETATION of prophecy). Revelation is progressive, it can take a LONG TIME for GOD to reveal e.g. Salvation of Jesus was only revealed "thousands of years" after God promised to Abraham that "ALL NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED THROUGH YOU".

        Paul uses the same term "faith" in Jude 3 to mean the body of truth that is held by believers i.e. the gospels and all its implications(1Tiimothy4:1-6)Here he is addressing the issue of discerning the false teachings or the false prophets/teachers(Jude4,5)This is not to say NO MORE ADDITIONAL words or prophecy will be spoken by God. Because after all, God did appoint Apostles, PROPHETS, TEACHERS and pastors(1Cor12:28,Eph4:11) Evangelist in the church of Christ. God ALWAYS SPEAKS and he continues to speak to this day.

        Btw, Christianity isn't a religion defined by a set of doctrines. Yes, Truth will be revealed, but Truth isn't a set of philosophy, but a persona. This is why I urge brothers and sisters stop eating the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil (getting all caught up in christian theology and doctrines) and start eating the Fruit of the tree of Life(spending more time with Jesus) so that we may have more joy and peace that flows to eternal life.

        I hope these explanations clarify the confusion.

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      7. "But as for you, speak the things which are proper for sound doctrine..." Titus 2:1a
        "I charge you therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who will judge the living and the dead at His appearing and His kingdom: Preach the word! Be ready in season and out of season. Convince, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables." 2 Timothy 4:1-4

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    6. Marc Cerminaro, who works at the IT depratment at IHOP, has made allegations that he cannot backup. Rather than discuss it, he deleted his comments. However, please note that the anonymous comment following that was also posted by Marc.

      Marc, since you have called a brother a liar, this is in your court- prove it or apologize.

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    7. ADMIN NOTE- Marc's original post was essentially the same as the anon post which was submitted 9 minutes later. This blog is moderated, and many people resubmit when thier post does not show up immediately.

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    8. More information on the 7 signs of a cuklt teaching. Marc is correct, this is not a new teaching. It was obviously pulled out of the archives for "damage control." The teaching, in its current form can be traced back to the teaching dated August 28, 2009. The newer version added a section on page 1 and made some minor changes elsewhere.

      If we understand this document as "damage control" it will be useful to see what was going on in 2009. August 2009 was 10 months after the death of Jeremiah Candler, and press reports were starting to make the same allegations of cult-like activity at IHOP. Also, earlier in 2009, Ariel had published her anecdotal testimony outlining her experiences at IHOP, and the article was getting attention.

      http://tinyurl.com/CULT2009

      http://gospelmasquerade.wordpress.com/2009/02/18/why-i-believe-ihop-is-a-cult/

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    9. "We are given more light as the LORD reveal more of himself and the prophecy spoke through his prophets. You will acknowledge the new light if you are born of GOD; this is how we accepted Jesus being the Messiah, unlike many Jews."
      What new light are you referring to? Jesus is the only revealed light of God. I don't understand what you mean by new light. Hebrews 1:1,2 God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.
      Please explain further what you think that this new light is.
      "A Christian shouldn't simply hanging on to the old understanding of the basic doctrines that's been revealed long ago, but through continuing fellowship and guidance of the Holy Spirit that more understanding of the Truth may be revealed" (Jh16:13
      What old understanding of the basic doctrines are we to let go of?
      Titus 1:9"holding fast the faithful word which is in accordance with the teaching, so that he will be able both to exhort in sound doctrine and to refute those who contradict." Please read on in Titus.
      Paul urged Timothy to remain in Ephesus to instruct certain men not to teach strange doctrine. Just curious which doctrines should we have new light concerning our understanding?
      It scares me when you make a comment that we need new light. This is simply not in accordance with the teachings in the Word of God. We are to test and prove what is preached or prophesied by the teaching of scripture, that is the only acceptable plumbline. Proving can never be done by
      experience. Experience can mislead. Even if an angel appears bringing another message other than the gospel, it cannot be accepted.

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      1. It is not uncommon for Hoppers to tell me that "if I would just press in and ask God for his Holy Spirit, my eyes would be opened" or something like the "more light" comment above.

        What few of them realize is that I was doing that- and more- before most of them were born. I'm an old Jesus Freak, and bickle is not an elder to me, he is a peer.

        This idea that some people just don't get it because thier eyes have not been opened is the core value of IHOP elitism.


        See

        http://beyondgrace.blogspot.com/2012/12/ihop-forerunner-elitism-and-onething.html

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      2. By new light, I mean new insight from the LORD. Revelation from GOD has always being progressive and will continue to be progressive. People who are out of sync in walking with the LORD tend to live in the past glory and stock on old revelation given by GOD. GOD is the GOD of the living, not the GOD of the dead. Christianity isn't just a set of interpreted doctrines, but is a way of life. The knowledge of GOD is so VAST that we will continue to grow in the knowledge of him if we walk WITH HIM day-by-day.
        I never said Christian should "let go of the old, but embrace the new". I did say more truth will be revealed if we continue to walk with him.
        Proving the truth was never the central theme in the Bible. But walk by faith is. I believe most Christians fall into the trap of devil in this regard because majority of people are busy eating the fruit of tree of knowledge of good and evil (i.e. busy discerning what is or isn't the truth in fear of the occult) and letting go of eating the fruit of tree of life (i.e. spending time in prayer and in mediating GOD's word as well as allowing him to speak into our lives) If we are truly walking with the LORD by faith, we WILL KNOW the truth and not be deceived.

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      3. you statement of "What few of them realize is that I was doing that- and more- before most of them were born. I'm an old Jesus Freak, and bickle is not an elder to me, he is a peer" already tells me whether your eyes have been opened.

        "Hoppers" or not is totally irrelevant.

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    10. Derek Prince once stated of the "new light" coming from IHOP that it was the doctrine of devils.

      So, yes, if you want to make a case for progressive revelation (and I understand an appreciate both sides of that argument) then you also must allow for a Berean evaluation of the same to see if what is being spoken is true.

      But we have digressed from the point of the article, which is this:

      Bickle plainly lays out certain signs of a cult.

      Bickle's own "new revelation" suggests strongly that IHOP IS A CULT.

      The blueprint propehcy - which they rely on so much, along with the white horse prophecy, are all taught in their "propehtic history." They give these documents near-canonical status. And these documents prove they are elistist and cult-like- by their own defenition.

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    11. 1988 = Mike Bickle and Bob Jones
      "Visions and Revelations"

      http://archive.org/details/VisionsAndRevelations-MikeBickleWithBobJones1988

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    12. It sounds like you've already given Derek Prince's statement a near-canonical status.

      Btw, Mike NEVER SAID everyone MUST AGREE to his interpretation. In fact, he OFTEN encourages people to seek out THEIR OWN answers. If you listen to his sermons as often as I do, you would believe otherwise.

      You probably don't know much about IHOP's history either. If you do, you would not have attributed "ALL" to Bob Jones. God used other people to speak as well; Mike said this year after year during IHOP's anniversary. Mike is NOT BIG in 'blue print'. In fact, he said this past weekend that 95% of the prophecy prophecy spoken are not true. A few promises he would held on steadfastly because he is faithful to what GOD had spoken. This is something EVERY CHRISTIAN should learn to do.

      Please post links about IHOP ONLY IF YOU HAD GONE through ALL of them. Please stop judging people based on limited understanding and interpretation.

      Most people misunderstood cult/false apostles/other gospel/ that Paul taught. False teaching is to lead people away from sincere and pure devotion to Christ(2Cor11:3) Three characteristics that usually follows from occult according to Paul(2Cor4):
      1)Preaches Jesus other than Paul preaches i.e. Christ isn't the foundation of our lives(1Cor10-15)
      2)Receive a different spirit i.e. spirit of freedom, joy peace and power(Ro 14:17,Gal2:4,Eph3:20)instead of a spirit of bondage, fear and worldliness(Ro8:15, Gal2:4,Col2:20-23)
      3)Preach a different Gospel i.e. a gospel isn't based on the grace of Christ (Gal1:6-9)

      To sum up, occult is to lead people away from pure and sincere devotion to Christ thereby discredit who Jesus is, what Jesus had done and to quench the work of the holy spirit that yields love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness and self-control (Gal5:22) by a different spirit that yields bondage (Gal2:4), fear (Ro8:15) and worldliness (Col2:20-23)

      Occult ISN'T DEFINED by subjective interpretation of the dreams, visions or prophecy which may or may not be correct (only time would tell), but rather by whether someone is living in Christ. It is still the question of whether we are eating the fruit of Tree of Life.

      One thing I've practiced all my life and am still practicing is to not judge of the things I DON't KNOW of. But I WILL JUDGE of the things I DO KNOW OF based on the revelation by the Holy Spirit. I will not judge Berean evaluation of the same, but I WILL JUDGE their doctrine of "The sign gifts of the Acts period were temporary in character, and have ceased". This idea arises from "historic christianity" and it's completely none-biblical i.e. NO SCRIPTURES IN THE OLD NOR NEW TESTAMENT TO BACK IT UP. We are still in the last days since Christ Jesus had resurrected. Thank GOD that these signs and wonders are returning because the end of days will get worse and people need to see the reality of our LORD.









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    13. jj, I'm not a cessationist; I'm pentecostal.
      And I do know an awful lot about IHOP and IHOP's history- I even remember when it started.
      Also- big difference between Occult and Cult. Nobody is saying Occult, although Bob Jones' hands changing color might match that description.

      I expect Bickle will be de-empahsizing his Blue Print Prophecy since I have pointed out the several revisions of this seminal "word from God." He really does not have much choice as he is unwiling to publish the COMPLETE ORIGINAL original and let the church judge it. Instead he says "trust me." Well, many people do not, and for good reason.

      If 95% of the prophecies at IHOP are not true, wouldn't he do the church a favor to simply tell the prophets to shut up? I can do better just flipping a coin.

      God help the man who speaks on behalf of God when God has not spoken.

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    14. There is a difference between hearing and knowing. You may hear what people said about IHOP, but the only way to know IHOP is be there and get involved, something of which you haven't done. For example, unless YOU HAVE BEEN baptized by the Holy Spirit and Fire, you won't KNOW what it means. I am using this analogy because you said you are pentecostal.

      I am not at all interested in scholarly interpretation of different definitions and terminologies. Getting technical isn't what believing Jesus is all about. For the kingdom of the LORD isn't a matter of eating or drinking (i.e. technicalities), but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy spirit (Ro 14:17). Again it is the matter of eating of fruit of tree of Life, not the fruit of knowledge of Good and Evil as I've emphasized and re-emphasized over and over. Btw, the term cult or occult isn't even been used in the Bible, it is pointless to debate/categorize them. The guidelines that Paul and Peter referred to "the false prophets", "the false teachers" and "the Other gospels" is quite lucid as I've illustrated before(2Cor11:4).

      I didn't say Mike said "95% of prophecy at IHOP" is false, I did say Mike said "95% of prophecy spoken" is false. If we assume by false we mean whether the things have been spoken have come to pass, then it is a question of whether GOD had spoken(Dt18:22), whether people obeyed what the LORD had spoken(Jdg2:1-3, 2Ki5:10-14), whether people have faith in the LORD(Mt13:58) or whether people have sinned(Jos7:10-12). It is a lot more complicated than simply telling the prophets to "shut up" or "stop prophesying" or "God help those who speaks on behalf of God when God has not spoken".

      I see lots of criticism and bitterness in your posts. I do hope to see more praise and adoration to the LORD Jesus in building up the body of Christ.

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    15. Will,
      Have you taken this up with Mike? Isn't that the Godly and manly way to deal with issues? If you have what does he personally say about what your concerns are?

      Second doesn't the bible talk about he who has no sin cast the first stone?
      And looking at the plank in ones eye before looking at the speck in someone else's?

      I'm not saying I agree with Mike in every way, but that is why we should all personally have a relationship with our maker! And not live thru a leader!
      I enjoyed reading this and as a man that has lived in a couple cult/ communities as well as currently work at ihopkc.
      I've noticed in life that all good comes with some sort of bad, we are all human! And God says that there is only one perfect man!

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    16. Anon,

      Mike is the one who invited all to evaluate movements against his list. This is not stone casting. This is a public response to a public teaching by a teacher with wide public exposure.

      There is no sin by Mike against me, hence no need to invoke Matthew 18:15. However, if he feels that anything in the article is untrue, he is welcome to participate in the discussion.

      BTW, your response is the typical deflection that is made when true facts are presented that many are uncomfortable with. As they should be. Can we talk about the facts please?

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    17. Anon,
      I'm no psychologist, but I have observed that people who get into abusive relationships sometimes escape only to tragically get caught up in another... Breaks my heart to hear you have already been part of a couple of cult communities and that you think that this somehow makes you more "immune" to cultish lies... Quite the opposite I'm afraid carl.

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    18. This blog is really inaccurate in many ways. For someone to say clear and factual they must know nothing about this ministry. Wow.

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      Replies
      1. I'm assuming that you are responding to Chad. Chad was actually part of IHOP for a while.

        Are there factual statements you would like to contest, or are your feelings hurt?

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    19. Admin: unless you can address specific issues stated in the article above, I'm not going to publish any more vague statements such as " Well frankly I would contest many of your factual statements."

      That is really not helpful.

      I'm finished with the playground fights.

      ReplyDelete

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