BeyondGrace

Justin Abraham and the “New Mystics”

2011-11-28T14:40:00.006-05:00

For these men are not full of the Holy Ghost, as you suppose.

There is a false anointing in the church. It is prevalent among the “signs and wonders” crowd, most notably those who call themselves the “new mystics” and promote, among other things, the “drunken glory.” As I mentioned in my article on Strange Fire in pentecost we used to call this “wildfire.” Now they embrace the term proudly and even convene “Wildfire Spirit Schools.”

Justin Abraham from Wales is one of these so-called “New Mystics.” He aligns himself with mystics John Crowder and Ben Dunn. Their agenda is to divert the church with utter foolishness at the expense of the gospel. I'm reminded of the foolish Galatians, of whom Paul said were “bewitched.”

These are the folks who now claim that God is manifesting His glory – His Divine Nature- in church services as a gold or silver-like dust. To those who object, they claim that “you cannot put God in a box.” Yet God has already given us His response in His Word:

“Being then the children of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by the art and thought of man.” -Acts 17:29

This was a quote from the Apostle paul at Mars Hill. More than anyone, the people of Athens would have enjoyed the escapades of the New Mystics. Paul's reaction was to get in their face and call them to repentance.

The aberrations do not stop there. For just a small fee, you can learn to levitate, bi-locate, even do “shape shifting.” No mention if the invisibility manifestion involves "cloaking devices" or not.

In this recording, Justin Abraham tells us that we can, through a divine impartation, breathe underwater (at 02:36). Friends, this is not biblical Christianity.

I have already written about the drunk-in-the-spirit manifestation promoted by people such as John Crowder or Carol Arnott (Toronto). Sadly, this is probably the least damaging thing taught by Justin Abraham.

I guarantee that this clip will get you laughing, but do not confuse your laughter with Holy Laughter, unless we are talking about the Godly laughter cited in Psalm 2:4. It's a long clip; I could only get through about 4 minutes of it.

Jesus plainly tells us that in the last days, you know those days that come at a time we do not expect, that “false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to misled, if possible, even the elect.” -Matthew 24:24

While there may be some gospel truth proclaimed in these meetings, we call this sort of stuff Gospel Plus. There would not be deception in the church if truth was not mixed in with error. I can only ask- isn't the gospel – Christ and Him crucified – enough? That's all Paul wanted to know (1 Cor 2:2) . That's all I want to know.
Tags: Harrisonburg, EMU, The Hub, Laurinda Peters, Spirit School, Company of Burning Hearts, Justin Abraham, Wales, New Mystics, Rachael Abraham, Mainstage Theater

Strange Fire

2011-11-20T17:58:00.003-05:00

Have you ever heard the term “Strange Fire?” Very often it is used to describe bizarre manifestations seen in the church, which seem to be more flesh than spirit. The term “strange fire” comes from Leviticus, Chapter 10.

Author Lee Grady addressed this in 2009 when he wrote an article titled “Strange Fire in the House of the Lord.” He characterized then-currrent fads involving angels, ecstatic worship, and necromancy as “strange fire.” I believe that almost three years later, things have gotten worse, not better. Says Grady:

No one fully understands what Nadab and Abihu did to prompt God to strike them dead in the sanctuary of Israel. The Bible says they loaded their firepans with incense, ignited the substance and "offered strange fire before the Lord, which He had not commanded them" (Lev. 10:1, NASB). As a result of their careless and irreverent behavior, fire came from God's presence and consumed them.

Zap. In an instant they were ashes.

And so “Strange fire” is used to describe odd and unusual forms of worship which are not prescribed in the bible. Sometimes in Pentecostal circles, you will hear it called “wildfire” as people joke that they would “rather have a little wildfire than no fire.” But is it a joking matter?

Let's turn to Leviticus and read the story in Chapter 10. Before we look at that, you should note the context – Chapter 9 lays out God's order for Tabernacle worship –concerning the sacrifices on the altar. Moses gives these instructions to Aaron and his sons, with this admonition: “This is what the Lord has commanded you to do..”

In Chapter 10, starting at verse 1, we read:

Then Aaron’s sons, Nadab and Abihu, each took his fire pan and put fire in it, set incense on it, and presented strange fire before the Lord, which he had not commanded them to do. So fire went out from the presence of the Lord and consumed them so that they died before the Lord. Moses then said to Aaron, “This is what the Lord spoke: ‘Among the ones close to me I will show myself holy, and in the presence of all the people I will be honored.’” So Aaron kept silent.

The expression “strange fire” used here in several translations is rendered “profane fire ” in the New King James and “unauthorized fire”; in the NIV and has been interpreted numerous ways. According to the NET bible, “the infraction may have involved any of the following or a combination thereof: (1) using coals from someplace other than the burnt offering altar (i.e., “unauthorized coals”), using the wrong kind of incense (cf. the Exodus 30:9 regulation against “strange incense”), (3) performing an incense offering at an unprescribed time or (4) entering the Holy of Holies at an inappropriate time(Lev 16:1-2).”

As Grady says, No one fully understands what Nadab and Abihu did to prompt God to strike them dead. I believe the term “profane fire” may give us some understanding. Contrary to common usage, “profane” does not mean cussing. It means, according to Webster, to “violate anything sacred, or treat it with abuse, irreverence...or contempt.” A simple definition is “to make ordinary that which is Holy.”

Recently someone in the “signs and wonders movement” suggested that the sin of Nadab and Abihu was that they offered up the fire in the tradition of the past. That statement turns orthodoxy in its head, which has always claimed that strange fire is turning away from God's established prescriptions. Jude 1:3 tells us to earnestly contend for the faith once delivered to the saints. So there certainly can be good religious tradition. Bear in mind that I'm certainly not defending dead religious tradition, I'm just saying that dead religious tradition is not, in itself, “strange fire.”

Let's focus back on verse 1 again. After God delivered precise instructions about the tabernacle worship- specifically the burnt offerings, and those offerings were made on the altar- which the fire consumed, we read “Then Aaron’s sons, Nadab and Abihu...” “Then,” from the original Hebrew, tells us that this happened on the day of the inauguration day of tabernacle worship, right after the fire consumed the offerings on the altar. Remember the chapter divisions in the bible are artificial. It doesn't really matter what the strange fire was, the problem was that they presented strange fire before the Lord, which he had not commanded them to do.

In other words, God told them what to do, Nadab and Abihu thought they knew better. At the root of strange fire you will always find presumption.

I could list a volume of things we see today in churches that are increasing in influence that God never told us to do. 2 Corinthians 4:2 tells us of those who handle the Word of God deceitfully, and I believe that this is a bigger problem today than in Paul's time. Scripture no longer means what it says, it is redefined by what God told a contemporary prophet, or through dreams and visions. And most of these folks doing things that God never told us to do, like Uzzah - who tried to steady the ark, have the best intentions, but are just plain wrong.

Let us not operate with our own ideas of how to do things. God has given us very detailed instructions, and more than any thing else, we need to honor those instructions with our obedience. It sounds spiritual to say that God is "doing a new thing" – we need to make sure that the "new thing" is not birthed in the flesh, as the good intentions and the good ideas of man will always lead to ruin.

Mike Bickle, a major leader in the apostolic and prophetic movement recently stated:

I will allow the fake in the room because I so believe in the genuine. I've had students (say) “Some of this seems fake” I go “It is... most of it's fake.” Most places that I've been, the majority of the manifestations are not caused by the holy spirit... but the problem is, it's not all fake. I will allow a whole lot of hamburger helper to allow the genuine take place.

By “hamburger helper” he means “the flesh.” It was at his meetings, when “revival” broke out recently, that the so-called “drunk in the spirit” manifestation became full blown in Kansas City.

While the trend today is to make church all about "signs and wonders," to seek after the “anointing” as if it were a play toy, and the battle cry is “bless me Lord,” we need to cultivate a reverence and fear of the Holy One . That is the faith that was once delivered to the saints.

I'll close with this from Leonard Ravenhill:

There’s an old hymn that says, "God’s presence and His very self, an essence all divine". I’ll ask you again, I’ve asked you before, When did you last go out of the sanctuary on tiptoe because God had revealed His holiness and His majesty?

Ravenhill is teaching out of 2 Samuel 6, when they retrieved the ark. He goes on to say:

Notice in verse five now. David and all the house of Israel played before the Lord in all instruments made of fir wood, harps, and psalteries, and timbrels, and cornets, and on cymbals. Now there’s his ecstasy! Now come down to verse nine.(After Uzzah was struck down. -ed.) This same David was afraid of the Lord that day. He said, "How shall the ark of the Lord come to me?" That’s a big switch! He’s excited they’re having the band music and having a whale of a time, and then suddenly God intervenes. And suddenly his whole emotional life does a somersault. He realizes what an awful God he serves. What a God of majesty! What a God of glory!

Bethel Church - there the vultures will gather?

2011-11-15T12:53:00.004-05:00

In case you have been asleep for the last few weeks, a spiritual manifestation of the “glory cloud” has been taking place at Bill Johnson's Bethel Church in Redding, CA. I blogged about it two weeks ago, not knowing that it had already accelerated like gasoline on a fire. Pastor Bill Johnson states that it is a “sign that makes you wonder.” Well, since he has the right to wonder, I suppose others, who may not arrive at the same conclusions, have the same right as well. I'll state right up front that any commenters who seek to prophetically warn others of blasphemy will not see their posts go through. We serve a God that is big enough to allow us to wonder about such things, and besides, we already have "Apostle" Bill Johnson's permission.

Of course, in the “river,” there has always been gold dust, gold fillings, even drippy gold-laced oil stigmata. Also gemstones appearing in churches and people's yards. And, as you might expect, there have been occasions of outright fraud, and intsances of well-meaning but totally-deceived people who just wanted to help God along by "seeding" the place.

The sheer magnitude of the current manifestation seems to rule out man-made fraud. Sure there are Hollywood effects that could be used, and Johnson's son (Bethel's worship leader) admits that he uses “lights and smoke” but perhaps that is limited to his “Jesus Culture” roadshow. Alarmingly, Brian Johnson also muses in another tweet “Do lights and smoke increase the anointing in worship?” I would have to say, based on that question, that there is a wide theological gap between Brian Johnson's understanding of the “anointing” and mine. How could anybody even ask that?

In reponse to my direct question, Bill Johnson has attested to me that they do not use smoke machines in their services, aside from youth events. I'll take him at his word.

The complexity of the current manifestation (and I say current because it changes every time) appears to be on the level of something that perhaps George Lucas or Steven Spielberg could pull off, but probably not without many others knowing it. And secrets like this are hard to keep. So, my impression is that this is a spiritual manifestation – genuinely supernatural. Take a look.

The following question was posed on a facebook discussion of this and it think it is worth looking at:

Ok my fellow Christians, let me get this straight.

We believe in an invisible God who lives in a place we cannot see, and who lives OUTSIDE of time but yet INSIDE our hearts.

We believe that a whale's belly is the place for man who disobeys and an ark on top of a flooded planet is the place for a man who listens.

We believe in talking snakes, talking donkeys, and talking bushes.

We believe that a Spirit can impregnate a virgin. We believe that God's Son came to Earth, died, raised Himself from the dead, and performed amazing miracles.

And we believe this earth will be destroyed by scorpion-tailed locusts, a lion-headed cavalry, a seven headed Beast of the Sea, and a seven headed red Dragon.

BUT

Gold flakes appearing during a church service is inconceivable?

Here's my response to that question:

YES - God can show us incredible signs and wonders.

Here's the problem:

In the recent past, many of the manifestations could be explained as being "of the flesh." Derek Prince called it a "mixture of spirits." Toronto "holy laughter" is an excellent example of such a mixture. I've seen it; we've all seen it.

This manifestation (or "sign and wonder") seems apart from the flesh (unless this is a massive fraud perpetrated by the leadership of Bethel, and I do not believe that is the case.) Although once limited to small manifestations, such as the fraud like Sylvania Machado employed at the Ruth Heflin campmeetings, this is being presented on a much larger scale.

And so I believe that we are looking at something that is supernatural.

The question dodges the source of the supernatural. If we believe- scripturally- of the validity of signs and wonders today we also must believe - scripturally - of lying signs and wonders. Jesus promised us, in Matthew 24, that we would see – in the last days – false signs and wonders that would deceive, if possible, even the elect.

Besides its venue-specific nature, which gives me pause, the ever-accelerating nature of this phenomena is something to ponder.

1. Bird Feathers
2. A few gold flakes here and there
3. Gold, feathers and gemstones
4. Smoke
5. Smoke with a few gold flakes
6. Smoke with a few gold flakes, a few gemstones thrown in for effect
7. Swirling smoke with a few gold flakes
8. Swirling smoke with luminescent sparklies
9. Massive swirling smoke with uprising confetti sparkles

I don't see that sort of ramping-up in the miracles in the bible. The plague of locusts didn't start with a few stink bugs.

I would propose that this sort of ramping-up has a direct correlation with the insatiable desire for more and more signs and wonders - call it lust - call it a “generation seeking after signs and wonders” - and someone is playing along with that, and feeding that desire.

The facebook question is a good one, but it does not go deep enough. If it was God's nature to feed (increase) our insatiable desires, the story of the manna in Exodus 16 might have played out differently.

Satan, on the other hand, wants to fuel our lusts. We know for a fact that the secret power of lawlessness is already at work (2 Thessalonians 2). Could this be a factor here? I don't know, because the lawless one has not yet been revealed.

There seems to be a real disconnect between the nature of God and the ever-increasing nature of the manifestation plus the less-than-sober reaction of those in the congregation when it occurs.

More questions than answers, I'm afraid.

As always, let's keep things civil, I'm going to delete any responses that use the terms such as heretic, blasphemer, antichrist, Sadducee, Pharisee, or scoffer. How does the ever-increasing nature of this manifestation line up with the manner in which the unchangeable God has revealed himself in the past? Is this like God? What do you think?

Bethel Church – Your kingdom come... on earth as in heaven

2011-11-09T18:08:00.002-05:00

Bill Johnson's Bethel Church teaches that "dance can be powerful tools of transformation in other’s lives." To further this end, they hold Arts conferences where they share "testimonies and impart a supernatural anointing for signs and wonders, which can be translated in what you create though hearing God’s voice, asking for understanding and then releasing His presence as you create!"

In the conferences thay have workshops which endeavor "to teach on and activate in what it looks like to connect with what the Holy Spirit is saying in the moment and express it through dance." They advertise "You will discover how to use your talent and ability to make prophetic declarations and transform your surroundings." And they ask "What does it mean to dance prophetically or deliver a word through dance?"

OK, boys and girls, if this is prophetic, then we are instructed to judge it. This presentation was done on the last day of an Arts conference at Bethel in 2010. Have at it.

Extra points for the first reader to supply the name of the song which starts at about 1:40 in the video.

Again, just to keep things civil, I'm going to delete any responses that use the terms such as heretic, blasphemer, antichrist, Sadducee, Pharisee, or scoffer. And responses such as "I know this is right because of the burning in my bosum" are not especially helpfull. You may post as Anonymous, but listing your name (or screen name) in the post will help others to direct their responses.

Adding on 11/11/11 - another video by popular request. If the first one made you laugh, this one will sober you up real quick.

Gold Dust and Feathers at Bethel

2011-10-31T13:50:00.009-04:00

Recently, on a facebook discussion group addressing all-things-Bethel, a Johnsonite became noticeably angry and vulgar when the question of gold dust and feathers at Bethel was brought up. The question was “If you attend Bethel, do you really think this is ok?” Getting past the carnal reactions (both sides), it was informative and instructive to see the usual arguments brought forth. I'd like to discuss these in detail.

Response Number 1

"God can and will use whatever He pleases to show himself real to people"

This is a variation of the classic "you can't put God in a box" argument. It is based on the false premise that we cannot understand or comprehend God and denies the fact that God can put Himself in a box.

We know certain things of God to be true:

He is faithful. He is truth. In Him there is no guile. He is all-knowing. He is everywhere. He knows our heart. He is jealous. He loves us. He is long-suffering. He is not capricious. He is just. He is righteous. And this is not a comprehensive list- let's just say He has revealed himself and we can know Him.

How do we know such things? Well, He has revealed Himself in history, and that revelation is recorded in scripture, which He has given to us. This concept is so important that theologians have given it a name: perspicuity. Quoting theopedia:

The doctrine of the clarity of Scripture (often called the “perspicuity of Scripture”) teaches that the meanings of the text can be clear to the ordinary reader, that God uses the text of the Bible to communicate His person and will. The witness of the Church throughout the ages is that ordinary people, who approach it in faith and humility, will be able to understand what the Bible is getting at, even if they meet with particular points of difficulty here and there.

OK, back from that rabbit trail. We can know certain things about God. And we know these things, not just based on our subjective experiences (which can lie) but based on the written Word of God, and our experiences and the teachings of others - tested against the Word of God as per 1 Thessalonians 5:21 ("test all things").

What is a box? It suggests a boundary - inside the box is one condition, outside the box is another. The National Weather Service, for instance, will post a Tornado warning and draw boundaries on a map- inside the warning "box" is a warning condition, outside is not. They even use the term "box" for these warnings.

So, to help us understand God let's make a little diagram. A box if you will. Let's use a few of the attributes listed above to form the boundaries of that box.

I think you must agree that God has placed himself in a box and there are certain things that He will not do. He is not a wishy-washy capricious God like so many false Gods, who act on a whim. Not only can we grasp the nature of God, but He wants us to, for He wants us conformed to His image. it is not, to use another metaophor, a "moving target."

How can anyone who argues "His heart aches for all to know Him in a VERY intimate way" not understand that God is knowable because He has (metaphorically) placed Himself in a box.

Variation on the Theme

Further discussion is merited because the original statement in the present discussion was not solely the "box argument" but rather incorporated the sovereignty argument. And this is a good question - if God is sovereign (He is) then can He do any thing that He pleases?

Let's cut to the chase on this. The answer is yes, but the more honest question is "WILL He do anything that pleases?". The answer to that question is no. And we are back to the "box" argument. God will not do things that are contrary to His nature (attributes).

As a side note, I find it interesting that many Johnsonites like to play the "sovereignty card" in matters of manifestations, but not in matters of healing- which is a huge part of Bethel doctrine. Most Johnsonites would take exception to the Calvinte view of sovereignty.

Response Number 2

"If it takes "gold dust"...to get someone's attention, God would do it if He wanted to."

My first response would be a Rob-Bellish “and you know this how?” But seriously, this reasoning is as bizarre as positing "If it takes sexy naked ladies to get someone's attention, God would do this if He wanted to." Sure.

Even Bob Jones, who is highly esteemed in the signs and wonders movement and spoke recently at a Bethel conference, has long acknowledged that the three major temptation for men in ministry are "Girls, gold and glory." The concept seems understandable - even to Jones whose weakness apparently was “girls” (sexy naked ladies, to be precise).

And so it seems incredulous that God would use what is a major source of temptation to "get someone's attention." Especially since He has already given us his written Word (the Bible) and the Living Word (Jesus, the sacrifice Lamb). Isn't Jesus enough?

As to his written Word, God has already stated:

"take my instruction and not silver, And knowledge rather that choicest gold."

And He goes on to say:

"For wisdom is better that jewels; and all desirable things cannot compare with her (wisdom)."

Is God's Word Sufficient?

Historically we find the signs and wonders movement drawing on the teachings of John Wimber, who brought forth his thesis of "power evangelism" to the charismatic church. In essence this thesis teaches that signs and wonders are required for the propagation of the gospel. Scripture tells us that signs and wonders will follow the preaching of God's Word. but this has been distorted in recent years, most notably by teacher Bill Johnson, into a situation where often signs and wonders have replaced the preaching of God's Word.

This has been promoted by the Bethel practice of "treasure hunting." Reports now are coming in from California of Johnsonites publicly rebuking street preachers attampting to preach the gospel. Because God has showed them a better way? What does God have to say? Isaiah 55 might give us a hint:

"So will My word be which goes forth from My mouth; It will not return to Me empty, Without accomplishing what I desire, And without succeeding in the matter for which I sent it."

Romans 1:16 gives us further understanding about the gospel message:

"For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes.."

My goal here is not to proof-text the sufficiency of the written (and preached) Word for instruction in righteousness, or its ability to speak to ears that are dull. No, I think we need to question an image of God that is so weak that He has to send pigeon feathers or Mylar glitter to capture man's attention. Or, perchance, even the real things.

I mentioned earlier that God has revealed himself through history. That notion comes from Hebrews 1:1. If we read on to verse 2, we find that, in "these last days" He has revealed Himself ("spoken to us") through his Son.

And so I ask this: did Jesus, God incarnate, actually die on the cross for our sins? Did He rise again on the third day? Was this witnessed by not only the believers but by unbelievers? Here is the bottom line: if this does not get you attention, nothing will. And if it takes gold (or sexy naked girls) to get you attention, are you really saved?

To use yet another metaphor, God has "drawn a line in the sand." He is looking for those whose hearts are fully committed to him (2 Chronicles 16:9). He is not looking for carnal followers, those whose attention is gained by carnal things.

"For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be."

We are Left With This

On one hand we have those whose mandate is to "preach the Word." On the other hand we have those who feel they must demonstrate an over-realized kingdom theology that appeals to man's lust for signs and wonders (c.f. Matthew 12:39) and justify it by stating, as John Wimber implied, that the Word was not enough.

This, of course, is a much bigger issue than the original question regarding whether the feathers and gold dust of Bethel are a valid sign from God, or if they are even possibly a sign of judgment.

The response "God can and will use whatever He pleases to show himself real to people" is trite, untrue, and does little to advance the Bethel position. And, in spite of anecdotal tales, "If it takes 'gold dust'...to get someone's attention, God would do it if He wanted to" can be considered to be no more than conjecture and brings with it some serious baggage. So far, no Johnsonite, nor even Bill Johnson himself, has developed a useful apologetic for “feathers and gold.”

Let's talk about it. Just to keep things civil, I'm going to delete any responses that use the terms such as heretic, blasphemer, antichrist, Sadducee, Pharisee, or scoffer. Play nice.

--adding two videos 11/2/2011 - see comments --

From September 2011 service

From 10/14/11 service

From 10/22(21?)/2011 service

Adding this 11-8-2011. I'd love to see the cut diamond that grew before thier eyes examined, but not holding my breath. What sort of cut marks would it exhibit, since it grew while cut?

Mike Bickle and IHOP – The Depths of Deception

2011-09-14T09:10:00.003-04:00

Many of the articles that I have written on this subject are quite complicated because they require an extensive knowledge concerning the so-called “prophetic history” of IHOP and the Harp and Bowl prayer movement. I'm going to make today's article simple and direct.

* * *

In 1989 after many of the deviant practices of Mike Bickle's ministry (KCF) were exposed, the church came under the wing of John Wimber and the Vineyard Fellowship. Wimber, who in later years expressed his regret in even becoming involved with the KCF, issued a 15 point memo of items that needed to be corrected.

Point fourteen seemed to be rather Bill Clintonish (“depends on what the meaning of 'is' is.”) where Wimber danced around the issue of restorationism and the five-fold.

14. Calling John Wimber, or others, apostles and prophets verses (sic) using the terms “apostolic leadership” and “prophetic ministry.”

We can see, initially, that Bickle made an effort to make correction in this area.

Here's a quote from Mike Bickle circa 1989, recalling a meeting between “prophet” Bob Jones and Art Katz, a teacher who was involved with KCF:

'That man is a prophet of God' said Katz. 'He told me secrets of my heart which no man could possibly know!' [1]

Fast forward to 1996 and a recollection of the same event in the third printing of “Growing in the Prophetic”

“Mike, this man seems like a prophet of God. He told me the secrets of my heart.” [2]

Reading on in the earlier version of the story, we are later told that Katz “suddenly stood up” and pronounces to Jones that he was a “prophet of God.” By 1996, we have Bickle “suddenly blurting” out to Jones that he was “truly prophetic.”

This is not a case of being picky about minor differences in retelling a story. And to Bickle's credit, he did make an attempt to address point fourteen. But changing the words - quotations- that were once spoken to make them politically correct is the most evil form of historical revisionism.

The Christian concept of repentance involves a change of heart, and a turning away. If you are a murderer and repent, you stop murdering. You do not revise your past history and say “yes, I beat that man very severely” when you actually killed him. You tell the truth and add the disclaimer "but I now see that murder was wrong."

The instance I have cited above is just one of dozens, perhaps hundreds, of similar revisions. Because the IHOP movement is so fascinated with their own so-called prophetic history, there are multiple stories (and versions) of heavenly visitations to leaders of the movement where God spoke and gave direction. In the same manner as the simple story above, it can be demonstrated, through comparing various documents and teaching tapes, that Mike Bickle will take the same liberties and revise even what he says are the very words of God- to suit the circumstance. We may question whether God even spoke, but it is presumptious to change those words that supposedly were spoken to make one look good.

This is a movement with deception at it heart.

Therefore, it has not been created in the image of God.

* * *

Please be sure to click on the COMMENTS link below.

[1] Pytches, David. Some Said It Thundered. Second impression, 1990. Hodder and Stoughton, London. (UK edition).

[2] Bickle, Mike. Growing In the Prophetic.. Third printing 1996. Creation House, Lake Mary, Fl.

David Pytches - Some Said It Thundered

2011-09-12T22:20:00.013-04:00

In 1990, David Pytches wrote a book about Mike Bickle and the Kansas City Prophets. Pytches, an Anglican Bishop, was very influential in the spread of Charismaticism into the United Kingdom, and was the founder of the New Wine conferences at that time (1989). Pytches book, “Some Said It Thundered” is perhaps the most comprehensive book on the KCP movement (now IHOP) but the biggest criticism of the work is that is was written from a very sympathetic viewpoint. Writes James A. Beverly:

David Pytches, the well-known Anglican renewal leader, gave the “rosy” and overly optimistic interpretation of KCF in his international best-seller, Some Said It Thundered. Unfortunately, his account is not the best place to turn for judicious and balanced investigation. In an article I wrote in The Canadian Baptist (March-April, 1992) I stated that the second edition of Pytches' work is marred by an “intemperate” forward by John White. Dr. White, in a spirit of graciousness, wrote me later and agreed that my verdict was correct. My view was based on the harsh statements about Ernie Gruen and his uncritical acceptance of the Vineyard's written reply about Gruen.

What I find most interesting about Pytches' book, and in line with my previous article about historical revisionism and the White Horse Prophecy, are the differences between the first edition of the book (published in the UK) and the second edition of the book which gained wide distribution in the States.

The Introduction to the second edition admits that (because of the Gruen Report) “the current attention being paid to the work developing at the Kansas City Fellowship has caused the leadership there to be particularly concerned about how they are presented. They wish to eliminate any impression of elitism for themselves.”

This makes it clear that Pytches work was written with a bias towards the Kansas City Prophets.
And true to form, many of the fantastic stories were either eliminated or greatly toned down. The story of Mike Bickle's visitation to heaven was eliminated, as were the references to Pat Bickle and the promise (city-wide revival) that would come with his healing.

And so, even back in 1991 there was a scrambling to put on a better public face, even though in meetings the fantastic stories were still told, and the promises believed. Around this time, certain tapes were removed from the tape ministry catalog of Grace Ministries (Bickle's umbrella organization), including the previously discussed and recently recovered Visions and Revelations.

Discovering these contemporaneous accounts has been very valuable in deciphering what really took place in these seminal years of the International House of Prayer movement. We have already written about the failed White Horse Prophecy and subsequent historical revisionism. Central to the prophecy (originally) was the idea that Bickle's paraplegic brother would be healed and his healing would bring about revival and a “city church” to Kansas City.

Let me be clear- the lack of healing (Pat Bickle later passed away) does not invalidate the IHOP ministry. God can (and will) sovereignly heal whom He may. What, in my mind, invalidates the IHOP ministry is a claim to a so-called “Prophetic History” that is frequently revised to eliminate failed prophecies and to portray the founding of the movement in a better light.

If you have not yet read about the White Horse Prophecy, now would be a good time. I'll wait.

* * *

In essence, the White Horse Prophecy changed over time to suit the circumstances. What was once a white horse with two men, one on a board on the horse (Pat Bickle) became a white horse with the "young leaders" of the movement. Too much trouble to explain the failed prophecies, I suppose.

As you may have seen from that article, we have been able to piece together a story from multiple sources which brings out the emphasis of that prophecy from the late 80's and early 90's- the formation period of the IHOP movement. And suffice it to say, perhaps not a single IHOP student or intern who is undergoing the mandatory training in the “prophetic history” today is aware of any of this.

And so this morning, I received in the mail a copy of David Pytches “Some Said it Thundered” first edition 1990. And the real story of the White Horse prophecy. Here are some excerpts:

Bob then spent the next two hours with eyes fixed on Mike telling him of some of the visions he believed he had received from the Lord. Central to them, it seemed, was a strange white horse with a board of its back bearing a young man. The horse was plodding along the mountain side in a stream of fresh water about four inches deep. Bob Jones was behind it holding long reins, not so much guiding the horse but steering it back into midstream, to protect it from mad rabid dogs; these apparently were sincere men with false doctrine but being rabid they had a phobia of water and dared not get into it.

Bob Jones said he imagined the man on the back of the horse must be Mike Himself. The Lord told him he was going to deliver that young man.   (Pytches, 1st edition, pp. 65)

So it appears that initially they did not realize that Pat Bickle was in the dream. This is consistent with other recollections that we have heard from Bob Jones, who is not very coherent to begin with. But further revelation was given:

As they were seated with Art Katz around Bob Jones' table that Sunday evening talking, praying and weeping before the Lord, midnight came.

Bob Jones spoke: 'By the way, an angel of the Lord visited me last night and told me I was mistaken! I asked Him, “What did I get wrong?” The angel said: “In that vision of the white horse in the stream that young man was not Mike but his brother Pat.”

'The other day Pat asked me if I had ever seen him before and I said “No!” Last night the angel re-ran that vision of the white horse which I have already told you about. I had always thought that the young man I saw carried on that board on the back of the white horse must be you, Mike! But when the angel spoke to me he showed me that actually it was Pat who was being borne on the white horse. So I had in fact seen Pat before but mistakenly I told him that I had not.

“Last night in the same vision I saw you, Mike, and I made a comment to you about the heavy responsibility you bore concerning Pat and you replied: “He's not heavy; he's my brother and I love him so much.”'

Mike was visibly startled at those words and began to sob. 'You have no idea what you have just said to me! Those were the very words that I had used in my secret covenant with the Lord over my brother!' he sobbed.   (Pytches, 1st edition, pp. 83)

Now it appears that another vision was factored into the story- this one given to Pat Bickle and then interpreted by another Kansas City Prophet, Augustine Alcala:

Later in August 1984 Bob Jones came up to Mike. 'Oh, by the way, I have a prediction for you. A young man is going to have a vision very soon. It will lift you high off the ground. You will hold on to him and not let go.'

What young man could be going to have a vision that could cause Mike to leap up like that, he wondered. He went home rejoicing. Once in the house, the phone rang. It was Augustine. 'Mike! God is going to visit your brother Pat tonight! He will show him that he will heal him!

The Lord did indeed visit Pat during the night. It was at 4:03 a.m. On the Friday. Pat was wide awake when in what seemed like a trance (cf. Acts 10:10) the Lord appeared and he was terrified. 'I have come. For eleven years I have not dealt with you.” said the Lord. It seemed slightly enigmatic. Pat came out of his trance and lay on his bed still in great fear. He had clearly not been healed. That morning he called Mike and asked him what it meant.

While Pat was still on the Line, Augustine (who only knew directly from the Lord what had happened to Pat that morning) called Mike on another line. Unable to reach him, Augustine left a message: Regarding Pat's visitation last night, look at Acts 3 where you will see that key miracle that opened up the city of Jerusalem was the healing of a cripple, and then at Acts 14 where another cripple was healed and this second miracle opened the door for the gospel to enter at Lystra. The Lord has called Pat and told him that he is going to heal him and this will be the key for the gospel to the whole of Kansas City.'

Mike was thinking fast. God had made Pat to be a sign to this city. Most people would have forgotten the story of his accident and subsequent testimony by then, but it seemed they would soon have cause to remember it.   (Pytches, 1st edition, pp. 102-3)

Well, finally we have cause to remember it.

* * *

Mike Bickle - Transported to Heaven

2011-09-05T23:38:00.007-04:00

Evangelical Christianity has historically held to the viewpoint that the office of apostle was foundational to New Testament Christianity. Generally this understanding of "office" is used to describe the function of the 12 Apostles and later Paul, who had also seen the resurrected Lord. Paul, in 1 Corinthians 15:8, notes that, regarding the post-resurrection appearances of Christ, that "last of all He appeared to me." A full discussion of this topic is here in a position paper issued by the Assemblies of God.

Theologian Wayne Gruedem makes a good case for the connection between the OT Prophets and the NT Apostles- the men who gave us the books of the the bible. He believes in the continuation of the gift of prophecy (but not infalliable - to be judged) but not the office of prophet.

Regardless, we must realize that many restorationist churches in the"Apostolic/Prophetic" teach that God is restoring the offices of the Apostles and Prophets to form the government of the end times church. So strongly do they feel about this that some churches are now sending out apostolic teams to other cities where they "mandate God" to "bestow apostolic keys." Seriously!

***

Apostles, of course, have great authority. It was the Apostles who wrote the New Testament. And modern day "Apostles" believe they speak with that same Biblical authority, using supernatural visits to heaven to establish doctrine and practice. In fact, those visits to heaven are very important, because they too can claim to have been face-to-face with God.

As we have discussed previously, the IHOP 24/7 prayer movement promotes the present-day office of Apostle. Its foundational prophets claim many heavenly visitations, audible messages from the Lord, and angelic visitations.

Many of these stories are contained in the 1988 recordings by Mike Bickle and Bob Jones called Visions and Revelations.

Bob Jones saw and described a vision in which, "The Holy Spirit took me to a place_this time it wasn't the Lord took me, it was the Holy Spirit. He took me to a place and I saw the Lord, high and lifted up, by some young men and he set upon the golden ark...and I looked and there were men that had hold of the ark and they had the ark upon their shoulders. And the government will be upon their single shoulders." Jones goes on to explain how, by way of allegory, the Lord showed him he would raise up 35 men, to be champions for Christ in the last days. "...They will reign and reveal to the world that they truly are the faithful and true leaders and the government that will be upon his single shoulder." Mike Bickle comments, "I think there'll be 35 like unto Paul...There would be 35 whom the Lord would separate in the highest way. The government rests on apostles and prophets."

Mike Bickle, speaking of a visit to Heaven by Bob Jones, "Paul was anxious to talk to the end-times apostles and prophets more than the end-times apostles and prophets would have been to talk to Paul. He (Paul) said because what they would do would do far more to the glory of God and the Saints in the New Testament would wait in line to greet the apostles from this generation."

In August of 1984 Mike Bickle had a visit to heaven to add to this body of knowledge.

"The Lord took my spirit out of my body... I don't know how it operates but I know your body is where its at but you're not there and you're somewhere else. And its not a dream and its not a vision, you're literally somewhere else...

I stood in this room and it had... clouds, it was a room only maybe 20 by 20 or 30. It was a little room. It had clouds in the bottom, on the top and the walls... (Bob Jones says "That's the courtroom")... I stood there, I was at the Lord's left hand, and I stood there, this was not a dream, this was as real as life here...I know it wasn't a dream or a vision...

I was standing there looking at the clouds all around and at the Lord's left hand and I could not look at him. There was something I could not look that way...I didn't want to look that way."

Bickle goes on to tell how the Lord sternly rebuked him in the realm of patience. At which point Bickle reports thinking his own carnal thoughts (not Godly thoughts) while in the "spirit before the Lord."

Bickle reports thinking "I'm not impatient" at which point Bickle and Jones start giggling. Bickle goes on to report that he thought (in response to the Lord's rebuke) "I don't agree with that" an in response the audience bursts into laughter.

After God finished rebuking Bickle, he starts falling "I start falling so rapidly. It takes 5 or 6 seconds. And I fall down to my bed. Right through the ceiling...I was going like 'ahhhhh'- I was coming down through the black sky - I was going 'ahhhh' - it wasn't funny at the time. And it's the most holy thing that ever happened to me but I guess it's humorous to you guys and uh, I come right through the ceiling, and I hit my bed and I look for like a half-a-second and I go right back up again and I go 'ahhhh,' I go straight back up again."

After Bickle returns to the courtroom a "whole line of" golden chariots appear. he saw men with those chariots and he believed those to be the 35 or so "super-apostles" that the Lord had previously told Bob Jones would be birthed out of his movement. A chariot appeared and "the Lord said 'get in it' and I knew intuitively, instantly it was an Apostolic ministry." The Lord was not calling me an apostle. He said He was thinking, ‘The days to come, if you’re faithful, you have an opportunity in the grace of God to fill an apostolic calling if you’re faithful to the full measure.’

And so the "apostles" today frequently speak of the heavenly visitations which give them the credentials to call themselves apostles. And the visits frequently contain information that they will base there movements on, information that sometimes is used in the formation of doctrine (in this case the doctrine of the restoration of the five-fold ministry.

Which brings up the question- are visitations to heaven a biblical practice? What should man's reaction to the presence of God be? We know that the bible cites a few examples. Paul states, in 2 Corinthians 12:2

" I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago—whether in the body I do not know, or out of the body I do not know, God knows—such a man was caught up to the third heaven. And I know how such a man—whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, God knows— was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which a man is not permitted to speak."

John the Revelator, who was "in the Spirit" and saw Jesus, "fell at His feet like a dead man."

Isaiah, in the presence of God, said "Woe is me, I am undone!"

Paul, at Damascus Road, was struck blind for three days.

Unlike these examples, Mike Bickle was not only permitted to speak of things he saw in heaven, but he recounted them with great laughter. Bickle's story cited above starts at about 01:22:00 in file three of the Visions and Revelations series of 1988. Apparently Bickle, Jones and the audience found the entire story quite funny. This does not come through in the transcript above; actually hearing it is somewhat disturbing.

In Visions and Revelations, Mike Bickle states of Bob Jones:

"You know, I'm going to tell you something about Bob. Ever since that time in '74 when he was filled with the Holy Spirit he began to see the Technicolor visions and the Lord began to visit him. Since that time he has seen many, many times, five, ten visions and dreams a night. And when I first met him, I couldn't hardly comprehend that. I said, “Five or ten a night!” He said, “Oh, yes, all the time. Sometimes more, sometimes three or four.”

In this lengthy video, Bob Jones and Todd Bentley talk about some of these visits to heaven.

To this day Jones is revered as a great prophet at IHOP. It was those "visions and revelations" that form the foundation of IHOP, the basis for their vision and present day direction. They call it thier "prophetic history." And if we buy into the validity of the heavenly visitations of Bickle and Jones, we have to buy into the whole vision of IHOP - that it indeed is God's strategic plan for the end times. These are serious claims, and they need to be seriously considered.

Looking at Mike Bickle's claim to a heavenly visitation, it seems to be used to bolster his restorationism doctrine. More importantly, when he says "the Lord said 'get in it' and I knew intuitively, instantly it was an Apostolic ministry," it can be seen as self-affirming. Little difference between this and the prophet who proclaims "Thus saith the Lord, hear the words of my prophet."

Compare that self-serving message again with the scriptures cited above and see if you can see the difference.

The casual nature of these third-heaven visitations as promoted by the Apostolic/Prophetic movement today is a seriously disturbing phenomena. If you have the time you may also want to watch this video with Bob Jones and Bill Johnson's friend Todd Bentley. Bentley recalls a rather bizarre third-heaven experience which he had while Bill Johnson was preaching at a meeting on the west coast.

Regarding the foundations of what we know today as IHOP (was KCF) Derek Prince had this to say: "the material circulated by KCF contains many statements which have no basis in Scripture and are frequently contrary to Scripture." He called some of the revelations "absurd and even blasphemous," and warned that "much of the material is permeated by what I consider to be occult influence."

That was twenty years ago. Is anyone paying attention?
Tags: Harrisonburg, JMU-HOP, jmuhop, theprayerfurnace, Fredericksburg Prayer Furnace, 24-7 Virginia, Chi Alpha, IHOP, David Bradshaw, Scott Bradshaw, Bowie Curry, Randy Martinez, Mark Kazmier, FPF Missions Base, The Prayer Furnace, The Burn, The Burn Service, Solemn Assembly, Prayer Room, Campus Strike Force

Introduction to Harp and Bowl Prayer

2011-09-01T09:48:00.021-04:00

Fervent prayer – that’s a good thing, right? There’s a model of prayer meeting going around that is called “Harp and Bowl.” The term “Harp and Bowl” is taken from imagery in Revelation 5, where the 24 elders held harps (worship) and bowls (prayers of the saints). Harp and Bowl is just one model that integrates worship and prayer, which of course is not a new concept. But the term Harp and Bowl refers to a specific stye of prayer meeting developed by Mike Bickle and the International House of Prayer (IHOP). Ok, admit it, the illustration to the right did get your attention, didn't it?

Here’s some things you need to be aware of:

1. The Harp and Bowl model is by its very nature integrated with Mike Bickle's IHOP ministry. Even though there may be no formal (or publicly revealed) connections‐ instructional material, training, lists of “Apostolic Prayers,” and personnel are in some way connected with IHOP. Various “satellite” prayer rooms travel to other communities and plant more 24/7 prayer rooms. These new prayer rooms feed new "interns" to the Kansas City prayer room or other regional prayer rooms, also internships at the various regional prayer rooms or the mother-ship will often feed people out to the new plants.

2. Those connections are solidified as existing prayer rooms send out apostolic teams to other towns and bestow "Apostolic Keys" and decree “prophetic mandates” to select individuals (I can't make this stuff up). It’s a budget form of church planting. The movement is spread through the laying-on-of-hands in the best Latter-Rain tradition.

3. 24/7 prayer rooms in the IHOP tradition most ALWAYS start out as ecumenical efforts, and usually for just a few hours a week. As things grow, more often than not, this ecumenical para‐church organization becomes a church of its own, drawing off the most passionate people from other local churches. By removing itself from established churches, it also removes itself from church oversight, allowing it to easily slide into heresy.

4. The Proselytizing nature of Harp and Bowl functions to further Mike Bickle's objective of the city church," a key feature today of the Apostolic/Prophetic movement. This movement functions under the fallacy of the restoration of the Offices of Apostle and Prophet.

5. Harp and Bowl is built on a flawed premise ‐ that God cannot or will not do anything until we fill the bowls with the prayers of the saints. Theologically, this is based on dominionism. Quoting their manual: “God does not act apart from human beings partnering with His heart.” Proponents believe they can “mandate” things, in effect tell God what to do.

6. At its roots, Harp and Bowl is based on a Post‐Trib, Pre‐Mill eschatological scheme called "Apostolic Premillenialism." Its central biblical rationalization is Revelation 5:8, which in the Pre‐Trib mindset, takes place in the future. Because of its emphasis on the Manifestation of the Sons of God, it cannot be eschatologically neutral.

7. Harp and Bowl to the casual observer appears very spontaneous and "spirit led." However, it is a very structured scheme which is liturgical in nature. Most objectionably, the scheme is promoted as God's chosen way- His “strategic plan” for the end times. Most all churches have an “order of service,” which is what we call liturgy. Few churches would dare to claim that their traditional order of service is God's chosen plan for the end times. Harp and Bowl makes that claim.

8. Harp and Bowl has been compared (by its proponents) to the Latter Rain "Restoration of the Tabernacle of David." In large scale operations it involves paid "missionaries" (musicians, intercessors) and establishes a class of priests apart from the laity. This, of course, fosters elitism. It is a model, in the here and now, that is alien to the New Testament. More info here.

9. Harp and Bowl is seen as a spiritual warfare tool, where intercessors issue "decrees" and sometimes become involved in telling angels how to battle for us. The "fullness of the faith" is seen in those who press in to operate on "a true spirit of prayer" implying that those outside the model are not. Within this movement the concept of the sovereignty of God is but a fleeting thought.

10. The foundations of Harp and Bowl are Manifested Sons of God. It is taught that only the "elected seed" (Bob Jones) will enter into this ‐ "those chosen from their Mother's womb" (Mike Bickle). Bob Jones was one of the prophets who prophesied the coming of the IHOP movement in the early days of the Kansas City Fellowship. "Those who are foreknown and predestinated for the end times, for you see, they’ll be the best of all the seed that’s ever been. . . This will be the end generation that is foreknown and predestinated to inherit all things...For they are the best of all the generations that have ever been upon the face of the earth. And the best of all generations are those elected seeds that will glorify Christ in the last days. . . They will move into things of the supernatural that no one has ever moved in before. Every miracle, sign, and wonder that has ever been in the Bible‐‐they’ll move in it consistently...because the Lord Jesus is worthy to be lifted up by a church that has reached the full maturity of the God‐man!." (Bob Jones). This is the "new breed" teaching of the MSoG heresy.

These are course are generalizations. The movement has been building for almost 30 years and its theology is complex and often contradictory. But any movement which claims to have the corner on truth (This end time's prayer movement - Harp and Bowl- is God's chosen strategy) should be prepared to have their presumptions investigated.

Understand that one of the core teachings from Mike Bickle, the founder of this movement, is that people who question the movement are "rabid dogs" and that no defense - no answer- should be given to them. So don't expect a meaningful response from the supporters of this movement. Expect to be 'cut off.' Expect appeals to 'unity'. Interesting that 'unity' as they define it always depends on an acceptance of the teachings and practicies revealed (only) to them as God's specially anointed apostles and prophets.Tags: Harrisonburg, JMU-HOP, jmuhop, theprayerfurnace, Fredericksburg Prayer Furnace, 24-7 Virginia, Chi Alpha, IHOP, David Bradshaw, Scott Bradshaw, Bowie Curry, Randy Martinez, Mark Kazmier, FPF Missions Base, The Prayer Furnace, The Burn, The Burn Service, Solemn Assembly, Prayer Room, Campus Strike Force

Mike Bickle – the White Horse Prophecy

2011-08-24T08:53:00.007-04:00

By the way, these are more than visions. They were full experiences. And I would ask Bob "was that a dream?" He say "no," I say well, a vision? "No." I said "well, what was it."
He goes "I was there."

Beloved, this is so important God sent a man back from death as a prophet. (1)

-Mike Bickle

The purpose of this article is to discuss the foundational “White Horse Prophecy” given by Prophet Bob Jones in January 1983, and most specifically how the content or emphasis of that word has changed over the years. The prophecy was spawned by a vision Bob received August 8, 1982. I'd like to start off with the personal testimony of a good friend we will call “Julie.”

My husband and I were a part of Kansas City Fellowship from it’s inception, until 1990. Here’s our story:

We were part of the original church that Mike Bickle started in the early 80’s called Kansas City Fellowship. In fact, when Mike first arrived in Kansas City, he spoke at a woman’s bible study that I was attending at the time. It was the first time I had heard contemplative prayer taught. I was so intrigued by his teaching, I made it a point to attend his soon-to-be new church. From the church’s early beginnings, we were wowed by the fact that this church seemed to be commissioned by God.

One other important fact that never gets mentioned, and has since been removed from the history. Mike had a quadriplegic brother named Pat whom we were close to. Pat always attended the evening prayer meetings which we also attended. Keep in mind, the early prayer movement was very sparse, a far cry from what it looks like today. Just a dozen or so faithful regularly attended. As a result, we got to know one another pretty well. Well, amongst all the prophecies and promises of the spirit being poured out on us, there was ALWAYS the promise that Pat would be healed. So often was that promise repeated that we spoke of it as a “given.” All of the prophets mentioned it numerous times. In fact, it was going to be THE EVENT that started the whole ball rolling.

Sadly, Pat passed away a few years ago. More sadly, however, is how this often-stated prophecy, at least how pivotal it was, was erased from the history. Now, when new IHOPers listen to the 18 plus hours of how IHOP came to be, they won’t know about Pat and that profound promise that we hoped for in his healing." (2)

With that background, let's talk about the evolution of the "White Horse Prophecy." Bob Jones described this prophecy in detail in a series of recordings made with Mike Bickle in 1988. The recordings were in an interview style, with Mike prompting Bob for stories of their "prophetic history" and (ironically as you will see) keeping Bob Jones on track.

(Mike) The White Horse always speaks, in Bob's Visions...it speaks of a corporate purpose that God is bringing to pass..

(Bob) I saw the White Horse and this time they was a man and that man was laying flat on a board on his back, and they was another one walking (by his) side and I couldn't understand it, but it was like one of them was walking beside of him was one of the men that was chosen to have a little power...and he was to be a leader of this...

This one, that was at his side, was saying "This man, He's not heavy, that I'm bearing, He's my Brother." (3) And that White Horse, some of the main purpose that the White Horse (corporate purpose) was to begin with, was to begin to pray for that man, I didn't know it then, but to pray for the man that was on that board. And the White Horse, I was told to lead the White Horse into the middle of a dry stream. It was a stream that centuries ago had water in it, but now it was dry. And as I led the White Horse right into the middle of the stream the Spirit of the Lord put water, like a little trickle, on both sides of it.

And He said, "I'm releasing the spirit of prophecy, to keep the White Horse in the Middle of the stream, and that's your only duty. Just walk along side, hold on with a gentle reign to keep it in the middle of the stream. Because, one day the rains will come and the flow will begin and when it does, the man on the white horse on the board shall be the one first to touch that stream."

One of our main duties, when we were being birthed, is to pray for Pat Bickle continually. (4)

Something that is done over and over in Mike Bickle's ministry is a recitation of their "prophetic history". I'm reminded of the practice done in a Seder dinner. And it is something that all first-year interns and students are required to study. Of all of the many stories told, the “White Horse Prophecy” has always been central to the movement.

Why? The White Horse Prophecy established Mike Bickle as the (powerful) leader of the movement. It established Bob Jones as the prophetic voice for the movement, to keep it "in the middle of the stream." And it promised great revival, signaled by Pat Bickle's miraculous healing.

This was the general understanding of the prophecy. And the telling of it was repeated over and over. And, as is the case in many charismatic churches, such a review of the things God has done is often done at News Years Eve services. Julie's recollection is not unfounded, as evidenced by some recently-discovered notes taken by her husband at the December 31, 1984 service at South Kansas City Fellowship:

January '83: White horse. Vision with Pat on horse. Said Bob was to steer the horse. Mad dogs on banks to destroy (wrong doctrine). (5)

To make it clear, the pejorative “mad dogs” (rabid) on the banks were pastors and leaders who would try to lead the movement away from its calling. That aspect of this seminal prophecy is worthy of its own discussion because of its self-fulfilling nature. We note now that it has become the main emphasis of the word.

Bob Jones had his White Horse vision in August of 1982, in which a central part of that vision was Pat Bickle. This fact was affirmed by Mike Bickle many times in its re-telling, and also by those apart from IHOP.

Here's a recitation of the same story on the world-hops.com website. World-hops is not affiliated with IHOP, but we present this as independent collaboration. The quotations suggest a transcription of yet another telling of the story by Mike Bickle.

“Bob Jones sees (in a prophetic vision) a river bed. The river bed has 4 inches of water. In the river bed is a white horse. The white horse is depicting this young adult movement that would overcome the flesh and be strong in the Lord.”

“I was in the riverbed with my brother Pat. And there were dogs with rabies on both sides of the riverbed. They were barking. There was only 4 inches of water but a rabid dog cannot get in water. And the Lord told Bob ‘These (dogs) are like righteous men; even in the body of Christ. They will bark and they will accuse and they will put down this purpose of this young adult prayer movement…because they won’t understand it…because we have such a focused assignment from the Lord.” (6)

Don Clasen, in his memoir on his time with the Kansas City Prophets, gives us further detail. It is worth noting that Clasen was part of the movement from November of 1992 to May of 2000. This suggests that the story was still known or told in some manner during that period.

There were other little stories and prophetic parables Bob Jones gave at times for KCF that remain intriguing to this day. One of them was the "White Horse" vision. In this, KCF was likened to a great White Horse that was carrying a rider who was an invalid. That rider was said to be Pat Bickle, Mike's younger brother who had become a quadriplegic due to a football accident a decade earlier. In the vision, Jones saw the rider thrown off the horse, land in a few inches of water, and wind up instantly healed! He was also told that it would not be until this happens that "the [KCF] movement will [really] begin." (7)

However it does appear that from 1988 to 2002, the aspect of Pat Bickle in the vision was being minimized. Julie states:

I believe this 'vision' began morphing, at this point in 1988, into a vision that wasn't so much about Pat's healing, as about young leadership not being mauled by the mad dogs. Those of us who were paying attention noticed the decline in interest toward Pat.

Pat was always the rider on the horse with Mike standing along side. This was repeated often in the early years of KCF. As the years went by, and the power just wasn't showing up, and Pat just wasn't being healed, discussion of him being healed was less and less. (8)

A twelve-session “Prophetic History” series was recorded in 2002 (9). There is no mention of Pat Bickle at all, but the story about the rabid dogs was strongly emphasized, perhaps because (as predicted) many pastors and leaders had been speaking out against the movement by that time (10).

After many years of battling infections and pneumonia related to his paralysis, Pat Bickle passed away in May of 2007 at age 50. He had been paralyzed for 33 years, since the high school football accident at age 17. As a testimony to his faith, his sister Tracey stated “he believed to his last dying breath that the Lord was going to touch his body.” (11)

On September 17 through 19, 2009, in celebration of the 10th anniversary of IHOP, Mike Bickle presented a new version of his "Prophetic History," replacing the 2002 tape series that was mandatory training material for his students at IHOP. The prophetic history now has the cumbersome title of “Encountering Jesus: Visions, Revelations, and Angelic Activity from IHOP-KC’s Prophetic History.”

The original sermon outline to Session 2 of the 2009 version talks about Bob Jones and his vision of the White Horse.

On August 8, 1982, Bob saw a white horse in the middle of a river bed that had 4 inches of water in it, with rabid dogs on the sides. Bob saw me and my brother Pat in the river bed. He stood behind us. Bob saw that when the Lord “raised up Pat,” then the floods of the Spirit would follow in God’s timing. The Lord raised up Pat and took him home to glory when he died on May 5, 2007. (2009 outline) (12)

This is the first known extant use of the term “raised up Pat,” which is congruent with the understanding that the Lord would heal Pat as the sign of the start of great revival. By using the phrase “raised up” Mike was able to redefine that event as the death of Pat.

This outline, of course, was the outline that Mike used to preach from, and that was handed out for people to follow along. When it came time to tell the story, in 2009, Mike chose to deviate from his sermon outline and gloss over the entire aspect of Pat Bickle.

He said on August 8th he saw a white horse in the middle of a river bed. And this white horse, which speaks of this young adult movement, was in the middle of a river bed. That river bed had four inches of water, it had rabid dogs, or dogs with rabies on both sides barking at this horse. But the dogs wouldn't get in the river because dogs with rabies, I've been told, don't like to get in the water. (2009 audio) (13)

This suggests that Mike had second thoughts about trying to use the “raised up” sleight-of-hand, knowing that his followers might not buy it. However, we cannot know the motives of a man's heart. And understandably, the death of Pat must have been a huge disappointment in Mike's life.

The disappearance of Pat Bickle from the seminal “White Horse Prophecy” became finalized in 2011. On Mike Bickle's website, you may download audio, video and notes from the Prophetic History sessions. The series is still promoted as eight sessions from 2009.

For this reason, during IHOP-KC's ten-year anniversary in September 2009, Mike took eight sessions to retell the most important prophetic experiences. (14)

However, session two of that series – audio, video and notes- are from 2011 (15). The remainder of the sessions are the actual 2009 sessions.

Interestingly, for the 2011 video-taped recording, Mike wore what appears to be the same blue shirt with a black tee underneath as he wore in 2009, and it is obvious from some of the introductory remarks (“what I covered in our first session”) that this was intended to replace the 2009 session 2.

We have eight sessions on our prophetic history. When I talk about our prophetic history, I’m talking about some outstanding and significant events that the Lord released in our midst. Most of them occurred in 1983 and 1984. At that time, the Lord was laying the foundation for things that are happening now, twenty-five or thirty years later. Roman numeral I. I want to remind you of what I covered in the first session. (2 years ago -ed) The first encounter I had with the Lord related... (2011 transcript) (16)

The 2011 revised outline to session 2 also changes things slightly. The other session notes posted on Mike Bickle's website remain unchanged.

"On August 8, 1982, in a vision, Bob saw a white horse in the middle of a river bed that had four inches of water in it, with rabid dogs on both sides. He knew that the white horse symbolized the young leaders of a future prayer movement. The dogs in this parable spoke of church leaders who did not see the value of the four heart standards or the need for a focused prayer ministry but saw it as being extreme and unnecessary. The white horse stood in the center of a nearly dry river bed. Bob stood behind it. His assignment was to help the “white horse” (the young leaders) to stay in the middle of the stream as they were preparing for a coming flood of the Spirit. (The preparation was connected to upholding the four heart standards given in Cairo)." (2011 outline) (17)

Compare again to the 2009 outline:

On August 8, 1982, Bob saw a white horse in the middle of a river bed that had 4 inches of water in it, with rabid dogs on the sides. Bob saw me and my brother Pat in the river bed. He stood behind us. Bob saw that when the Lord “raised up Pat,” then the floods of the Spirit would follow in God’s timing. The Lord raised up Pat and took him home to glory when he died on May 5, 2007. (2009 outline) (18)

Note that in the 2011 version of the prophesy Mike and Pat Bickle have vaporized, the White Horse became "the young leaders," and there was no longer any mention of the Lord healing Pat as a sign of revival. Now, those were the notes; what did Mike actually say in the recording?

He (Bob Jones) said, “This white horse was in the middle of a dry riverbed.” He went on to explain that this white horse represented a company of young leaders in the early days. It was those leaders who were involved in this purpose back in 1983, 1984, and 1985. The Lord gave a symbolic picture of these leaders as a white horse. Of course, that symbolism could be applied to many different ministries around the world. He said, “I saw these white horses. I saw this company of young leaders, and they were in the middle of a dry riverbed. There was a small amount of water—about four inches.” He said, “There were these mad dogs on each side of the river. These mad dogs had rabies and they were barking and accusing and trying to bite this horse.” The Lord told Bob, “Your assignment is to keep these young people, this white horse, in the middle of the stream. (2011 transcript) (19)

The transcript was provided by Bickle's ministry, and the quotations are as printed in the transcript. Bob Jones claims to have had perhaps dozens of visions of the White Horse, and in those the White Horse always represents the movement. And Bob tells the story different each time; but we note that he can't even quote Scripture accurately. As Mike explained in 1983, “The White horse ...it speaks of a corporate purpose...it's thousands of people with a purpose.” However, in the specific White Horse/ rabid Dog vision, Bob Jones made it clear that “they was a man and that man was laying flat on a board on his back, and they was another one walking (by his) side... and he was to be a leader...”

So we are left with an emphatic “they was a man.” Now you see him, now you don't.

Obviously, the White Horse Prophecy was very important to the folks in this movement, and was understood to specifically relate to Pat Bickle right up to the time of his death. Now it conveniently relates to "the young leaders." One can only surmise that it would be a distraction to the eager interns to try to explain away the complications of a failed prophecy.

If we are to revere prophetic words from these “prophets of renown” do we as mortal men, have the right to change those prophetic words to suit our present circumstance? I have already discussed this in my article on the so-called "Blueprint Prophecy." Can we change these words so that we look good before men, or to dodge criticism? Apparently, in Kansas City, Mike Bickle can.

And this being the case, why should we believe anything he says? Strong words?

Back in 2008 Mike Bickle said "I feel like many of God's shepherds are lying..." (20) If this is so objectionable (it is) then why should Mike Bickle be given a free pass? Can man fudge a prophecy? Or gloss over a failure? If so, should we listen to anything such a prophet says (Ezekiel 13)? Did the prophecies about Pat Bickle, now conveniently pushed aside, build up false hope among those at Kansas City Fellowship?

This is what the Lord Almighty says: "Do not listen to what the prophets are prophesying to you; they fill you with false hopes." (Jeremiah 23:16)

Friends, this situation speaks to the veracity and authenticity of Mike Bickle's ministry. John Wimber told Mike Bickle years ago that the prophets should own up to their failed prophecies (21). Owning up, in this case, would be far better than first stating that "The Lord raised up Pat and took him home to glory when he died on May 5, 2007" and then when that didn't seem to work, writing him out of the story altogether. God desires truth in our "innermost being" (Psalm 51:6).

At Pat Bickle's memorial service, Mike Bickle stated: "Pat never lied.

He was straightforward and honest.” (22)

(1) Mike Bickle, Encountering Jesus: Visions, Revelations, and Angelic Activity from IHOP-KC’s Prophetic History. Session 2 - Great Light, the White Horse, and the Chariots. September 18, 2009. Audio recording. http://media.ihop.org.s3.amazonaws.com/4ef34277-dd20-4986-a9f8-ad1d3ba057c3.mp3

(2) Personal correspondence (2010), also posted at http://thegreycoats.wordpress.com/2010/01/14/julies-story/

(3) This was seen as prophetic, because Mike Bickle had privately adopted the words of this then-popular song to apply to him and his brother and his vow to take care of him. See David Pytches book "Some Said it Thundered" page 82.

(4) Mike Bickle with Bob Jones. Visions & Revelations. Fall 1988. Audio recording. The White Horse story starts at about 22:00 on tape 2.
http://www.archive.org/details/VisionsAndRevelations-MikeBickleWithBobJones1988

(5) Personal correspondence, August 16, 2011. Notes found on a church bulletin from that service in Julie's husband's bible.

(6) Found at http://world-hops.com/OurPropheticBlueprint.html
World-hops is not associated with IHOP but has posted a rather detailed report of the prophecy presumable a transcription of Bickle and Jones from a recording at some time.

(7) Don Clasen, "Vintage Metro: My Eight Years With The Kansas City Prophets" http://www.birthpangs.org/articles/kcp/kcp-Vintage-Metro.pdf

(8) Personal correspondence, August 20, 2011

(9) The 2002 sessions are known as the 12-part "Encountering Jesus" series. Transcripts and high-quality mp3 recordings are available at http://www.rockriverhouseofprayer.com/audio/audio.html

(10) http://www.birthpangs.org/articles/kcp/Abberent%20Practises.pdf

(11) http://www.legacy.com/obituaries/kansascity/obituary.aspx?n=pat-bickle&pid=87856390

(12) Mike Bickle. Encountering Jesus: Visions, Revelations, and Angelic Activity from IHOP-KC’s Prophetic History. Session 2 - Great Light, White Horse, Chariots, and Sands of Time. September 18, 2009. Sermon Outline. http://www.ihop.org/Publisher/File.aspx?ID=1000014256

(13) Mike Bickle. Encountering Jesus: Visions, Revelations, and Angelic Activity from IHOP-KC’s Prophetic History. Session 2 - Great Light, White Horse, Chariots, and Sands of Time. September 18, 2009. Audio Recording. http://media.ihop.org.s3.amazonaws.com/4ef34277-dd20-4986-a9f8-ad1d3ba057c3.mp3

(14) http://mikebickle.org/resources/series/38

(15) The date of April 25, 2011 is posted along side the listing for that particular session.

(16) Mike Bickle. Encountering Jesus: Visions, Revelations, and Angelic Activity from IHOP-KC’s Prophetic History. Session 2 - Explosion of Light, the White Horse, and the Chariots. April 25, 2011. Transcript.
http://www.mikebickle.org.edgesuite.net/MikeBickleVOD/2011/20110425_T_Explosion_of_Light_the_White_Horse_and_the_Chariots_IPH02.pdf

(17) Mike Bickle. Encountering Jesus: Visions, Revelations, and Angelic Activity from IHOP-KC’s Prophetic History. Session 2 - Explosion of Light, the White Horse, and the Chariots. April 25, 2011. Sermon Outline. http://www.mikebickle.org.edgesuite.net/MikeBickleVOD/2011/20110425_Explosion_of_Light_the_White_Horse_and_the_Chariots_IPH02.pdf

(18) Mike Bickle. Encountering Jesus: Visions, Revelations, and Angelic Activity from IHOP-KC’s Prophetic History. Session 2 - Great Light, White Horse, Chariots, and Sands of Time. September 18, 2009. Sermon Outline. http://www.ihop.org/Publisher/File.aspx?ID=1000014256

(19) Mike Bickle. Encountering Jesus: Visions, Revelations, and Angelic Activity from IHOP-KC’s Prophetic History. Session 2 - Explosion of Light, the White Horse, and the Chariots. April 25, 2011. Transcript. http://www.mikebickle.org.edgesuite.net/MikeBickleVOD/2011/20110425_T_Explosion_of_Light_the_White_Horse_and_the_Chariots_IPH02.pdf

(20) Promotional video podcast promoting Onething 2008. Transcription from contemporaneous note by the author. The video is no longer on the internet.

(21) Wimber's statement in 1990 said that KCF needed to address errors including "The lack of accountability for prophecies that do not come true or do not bear witness to the person receiving the ministry." Grady, Lee "Resolving the Kansas City Prophecy Controversy," Sidebar: Making Corrections, Ministries Today, September/October 1990

(22) http://image.teamfca.net/siteuploadfiles/FCA/4E6CBE2E-D94B-4D4C-A0D2F55D187B4482/2CD8DC95-FDEC-4274-80150B140ABDEAF0.doc

Note: Digital copies are on file of all audio, video (where available), outlines and transcriptions (where available) of the prophetic history sessions referenced in this article, including the 1988 sessions, which were originally on cassette tape. Meta-tag data on all digital files (post 1988) have been forensically examined to confirm the correct attribution of the dating of documents and recordings, and the authorship of documents. In many cases, duplicate files have been obtained from discrete sources, with confirming meta-data.

Tags: Stephanie Grant,JMU-HOP, jmuhop, theprayerfurnace, Fredericksburg Prayer Furnace, 24-7 Virginia, Chi Alpha, IHOP, David Bradshaw, Randy Martinez, Solemn Assembly, Prayer Room, Campus Strike Force

Mike Bickle - Inoculation of the Sheep

2011-08-08T09:57:00.006-04:00

How the "White Horse" prophecy keeps the followers from questioning anything.

Imagine, if you will, a movement built on numerous bizarre prophecies, including a visit to heaven by its leader. Such a movement must have built-in safeguards to keep its followers from questioning those prophecies. No, we are are not talking about the followers of Joseph Smith, but rather the followers of Mike Bickle, the leader of the International House of Prayer in Kansas City.

Many years ago, Bickle's prophets created a paradigm of elitism, suggesting that its followers would be a super-race of Christians.

"No prophet or apostle ever lived equal the power of these individuals in this great army of the Lord in these last days. No one ever had it, not even Elijah, or Peter, or Paul or anyone else enjoyed the power that's going to rest upon, uh, this, uh, great Army."

-Paul Cain

"From out of the sands of time I have called the best of every bloodline in the earth, unto this generation...Even the bloodline of Paul...of David...of Peter, James and John, the best of their seed is unto this generation. They will even be superior to them in heart, stature and love for me..."

-Bob Jones

"Even out of the loins of the blood line of the flesh of Abraham--even as I said there would be many seeds and many nations, kindred, and tongues… I shall raise up and there shall flow forth many sons and daughters...

You (Bickle) shall go forth and lead a people even as Moses led a people and there shall be those that shall lift up your hands. You (Bickle) shall consecrate this people..."

-Blueprint Prophecy (2006 version), given by unidentified mystery prophet

This article is not about those "new breed" or "chosen seed" prophecies, which should be questioned, but rather about why the followers of Bickle cannot question anything.

For at least one Bickle intern, the question was settled by a prophetic word given to Mike Bickle by yet another "Prophet."

"Persecution will be birthed against you and the work that God has entrusted to your leadership, and the Lord says you are not to touch it, you are not to answer it; you are to leave it in the Lord's hands, and He will settle it for you."

-Augustine Alcala

I mentioned earlier that the movement is built on numerous bizarre prophecies. Interestingly, the contents of these prophecies have a disturbing tendency to change over the years, to suit the moment. What is critical to understand is that listening to a collection of these fantastic stories is part of the mandatory ~~inoculation~~ training for all internships. They call it their "Prophetic History."

If you haven't caught on, Alcala's prophecy just defined any questions that might arise concerning the ministry as "persecution." And the followers are taught to not answer back concerning any questions- which pretty much precludes any legitmate discussion.

Although they will state that Mike tells them to check out what he says against the scriptures, obviously if one questions Mike's take on the Scriptures, and many have, one becomes a persecutor and is blown off.

In Bickle's recitations of his "prophetic history" he boasts of encounters with Godly men, even pastors, who have tried to counsel him. During or after these encounters, the Holy Ghost (or Bob Jones) warns him to disregard everything they say.

This "bunker mentality" is often see in many cults. It is one of the reasons why many would classify IHOP as cultic. Another factor leading to such accusations would be the numerous "self-fulfilling prophecies."

If you prophecy bizarre, even unbiblical things, and also prophesy that people will question question the things you teach, then when people DO question the things you teach, you can say - "see, the Lord told us this would happen." But "wait," you say, "doesn't the bible tell us that we will be persecuted?" I think the point could be made that, compared to imprisonment or even death, a theological discussion hardly qualifies as "persecution."

One of the most egregious examples of this self-fulfilling prophecy is found in the Bob Jones "White Horse - Rabid Dog" prophecy. The "rabid dog" aspect of the White Horse prophecy is most interesting, because it presupposed that Godly, righteous men will not enter into Bickle's movement. And it pejoratively describes those men as "rabid dogs." Here are some highlights from Bickle's sermon notes:

On August 8, 1982, Bob saw a white horse in the middle of a river bed that had 4 inches of water in it, with rabid dogs on the sides.

Bob’s assignment from the Lord was to help the white horse (leaders of the youth movement) stay in the “middle of the stream” as they were preparing for the coming flood of the Spirit.

The dogs in this parable spoke of church leaders who could not see the value of these four heart standards or the need for a focused prayer ministry. They upheld the traditional lifestyle of the western Church that sees the four heart standards as being extreme and unnecessary.

A rabid dog is one that is mad. Its throat is swollen up so it cannot get into the water because it cannot drink. They stand on the side of the water and accuse those who are in it. They cannot bite him if he stays in the stream, because they can't go into the water. If a mad dog bites you, it imparts madness to you. Religion is madness. They are to stay in the middle of the stream.

I (Bob Jones) saw many leaders coming like barking dogs trying to scare the white horse out of the middle of the dry stream. They would say, “You are doing it wrong, come and join me.”

The river, of course, is a common metaphor in the Charismatic church for the "new thing" that God is doing. And so these rabid dogs will not enter into the river. Therefore, anyone who questions Bickle is a "mad dog."

In 2008, Bickle continued his charge against the "church leaders." In a video promotion for an upcoming "OneThing" event, Bickle states "I feel like many of God's shepherds are lying, they're just telling lies about the Bible."

Why does any of this matter? It matters because through these self-fulfilling prophecies Bickle has inoculated his followers from questioning anything. Yes, he may tell them to be Bereans (examine the scriptures to see if these things are true), but in actual practice no opposing questions are entertained. And because of this they are in danger. Either they are absolutely right, or they are absolutely decieved. And because of the grueling schedule required to staff a 24/7 prayer-room, and what many might consider excessive fasting, the critical-thinking abilities of the interns at IHOP are already impaired.

"There was no alone time ever to really think, reason, test, question or process anything. We were run ragged from sun up to late into the night which always left me exhausted, depleted and burnt out."

-Ariel, former IHOP intern. Link.

In an upcoming article we will examine another aspect of the "White Horse" prophecy that reveals how Mike Bickle will change the telling of these stories, as circumstances change, so that the prophecies do not appear false. If, as we have demonstrated, that self-fulfilling prophecies are used as a mind-control technique (wittingly or unwittingly), and if, as we intend to demonstrate, that prophecies - given by God - can be revised at will by man, then we have a very dangerous situation indeed. Not all is well in Kansas City.

Desperately Seeking Source Material

2011-08-05T09:45:00.008-04:00

An awful lot of material has been published on the web citing resources that in all likelihood were never seen by the authors of those articles. A form of circular reasoning exists and you will often see the exact same words on multiple sites.

This becomes very evident when you search for certain quotes. Obviously they are citing the same document, but we cannot conclude from multiple citations that the source material is authentic. On the internet, distortions get repeated so many times they they seem to be true, even if not.

And because of rampant revisionism - in Charismatic history - the source material is more valuable than ever. This for instance is what makes the recording of Mike Bickle's seminal "Blow the Trumpet" sermon so valuable.

Here's where I need some help. I'm not questioning the veracity of quotations from the original transcription of "Visions and Revelations," but I would like to examine the entire work rather then selected portions - either tape or transcription. At this point, it seems like certain things have changed in some of the stories - and when you can change the story of a visit to heaven, it strongly suggests that the story is a "story."

Here's what I am seeking:

Mike Bickle with Bob Jones "Visions and Revelations" 1988 (I believe this is a 5 part series). Tapes or Transcripts.

Mike Bickle with Bob Jones "Visions and Revelations" 1989 Tapes or Transcripts.

Any materials on IHOP's "Prophetic History" from 1990 to 2001. We have the 12-part series from November 2002 and the more recent 8-part series from September 2009. This series is often called "Encountering Jesus."
Mike Bickle KCF Prophetic History - 6 (or 10?) tape set from January 1997. Tape 6 features Paul Cain. That may have later been repackaged as a CD (set?) called "Our Prophetic History."

Also on my shopping list:

The six-page joint statement by Mike Bickle and Ernie Gruen from May 16, 1993. This was at one time published on the IHOP website at http://www.ihop.org/Mobile/default.aspx?group_id=1000008264&article_id=1000010561

The alleged recantation of Ernie Gruen. This is not the statement of corrections to the audio tape "Do We Keep Smiling and Say Nothing" placed on page 7 of the Gruen paper. To this date, no one has been able to produce a copy of the recantation and Gruen, shortly before his death, denied that he had made any recantation. However, the alleged recantation is often presented as a defense of Mike Bickle, even though Bickle stated, concerning Gruen's charges: “I absolutely believe that this was sovereign..”

Gruen's report indicate that he had a lot of source material- early recordings and such - and any of that material would also be very helpful. He event cited the "Visions and Revelations" mentioned above.

Any material provided will be archived in a manner that will be accessible to other researchers and in the future (if the Lord tarries) to church historians. You may leave a comment below or contact me directly. Bill Fawcett fawcetwd@gmail.com

Bill Johnson and John Crowder's Leaven

2011-07-11T21:25:00.007-04:00

It is endemic to the river branch of Christianity today to not be critical of aberrant teachers, but rather to embrace them. At the very top of the list of aberrant teachers (perhaps heretical) is John Crowder, the man who promotes among other things "toking the Holy Ghost." Crowder also embraces a strange form of necromancy that runs rampant in the "river."

As an example of that unabashed acceptance, here is a recent facebook exchange between David Williams and Bill Johnson:

Williams: So I presume that you and Beni have no issues with the teachings and actions of these (Crowder and Dunn) ministries?

Johnson: We are friends. For us agreement isn't a prerequisite for any friendship. We love them and honor them. Great people.

This is not unlike Johnson's response when he came to the defense of the indefensable Todd Bentley during the Lakeland fiasco.

"Have you spent time with Todd? Do you know him? Have you watched him with his wife? Or have you seen how he treats his kids?...I didn't think so. I have. And I'll continue to support those who I have walked with in life and ministry. He's my friend." -Bill Johnson

So, we can understand that Johnson places a high value on friendship, perhaps higher than putting biblical principals into action. He certainly does not know how to deal with leaven.

In another facebook exchange Dan Carlton asks Bill Johnson about Dunn and Crowder:

Carlton: Why would you entertain two crazy nutters like Ben Dunn and John Crowder?

Johnson: I'll stand with the accused anyday before I'll stand with their accusers.

Sounds like boasting, no? Let's see how the Word of God addresses this:

"Your boasting is not good. Don't you know that a little yeast affects the whole batch of dough?" -1 Corinthians 5:6

You talk about a prophetic word to the church today! Yeah, I'll put a "thus saith the Lord" in front of that scripture. It's found in His Word. He said it.

Bill Johnson has voiced his acceptance of John Crowder. What does Crowder teach? How is that leaven spreading throught Johnson's Bethel School of Supernatural Ministry (BSSM)?

Crowder, kneeling at the grave of Alexander Dowie and speaking to the camera says:

"And we've just come to the grave today to release to you an impartation of healing revival, of city building, restoration city-taking anointing, master-building apostolic anointing, and so we just rip it right out of the ground, we just suck it right off his dead bones, in Jesus name, and loose it to you., a healing-revival-glory-master-building-apostolic anointing glory..."

Other have commented on this, bringing up the shortcomings of Alexander Dowie. Quite frankly, this would be just as wrong if it were the grave of the Apostle Paul. There is no biblical basis for this practice and it leads people into error.

So just how do these "great people," Dunn and Crowder, impact the students at BSSM?

BSSM Students on ministry trip "soaken up the glory" at Maria B Woodworth-Etter's grave.

2nd Year BSSM students "sucking up the anointing" at the grave of Evan Roberts.

"So today I got impartation from Maria Woodward Etters
grand-daughter and soaked at the grave site..."

Bill Johnson could put a stop to this immediately if he wanted to. And yet he does not. Instead, he has launched an initiative to build "a library/museum called The House of Generals. It will be a place where people can come to see artifacts from past revivals..."

Yes, you too can suck the anointing right off of Kathryn Kuhlman's wedding dress!

Is this ancestor worship? Necromancy? A doctrine of mantle reincarnation? Has Bill Johnson crossed the line from abberancy into heresy?

Bethelite at Smith Wigglesworth's grave- caption reads "In Bradford soaking up Smith's anointing..."

Johnson can dismiss me as an accuser. I'm simply presenting the evidence. Again, Johnson can put a stop to this now. Or he can enlighten the church now with a credible, biblical explanation of the doctrine of "sucking the anointing off of gravesites." I'm familiar enough with the story of Elisha's bones (2 Kings 13:21) to know that this is NOT what that was talking about. And if that WAS meant to be instructive, I say to the Johnsonites- "Here's a shovel, now go find a dead man." And report back to the class.

David Wilkerson May 19, 1931 - April 27, 2011

2011-04-28T07:50:00.006-04:00

David Wilkerson passed away on Wednesday, as a result of an automobile accident. He was a wonderful man of God, one who was steadfast for old-school pentecost. Wilkerson was the pastor of Times Square Church, the author of The Cross and the Switchblade, and the founder of Teen Challenge. He will be greatly missed. Take a few minutes and listen to this message.

Bill Johnson and the Divinity of Christ -Redux

2011-04-26T07:51:00.036-04:00

"You will find on Wikipedia a comprehensive description of a blog. One of the most salient features of a blog is its interactivity. In the field of apologetics, the interactivity provided by a blog can be most useful. A controversial article will often spawn research and input from others, snowballing into a synergy called the "power of the blogosphere."

In the case of BeyondGrace blog, being right is far less important than getting to the truth. So in this installment we revisit the question: Does Bill Johnson DENY that Jesus was divine (deity) during His incarnation here on earth?Back in 2010, based on the best evidence available, we said yes. On further reflection, we are not sure that he does.

2 minute theology lesson from Theopedia:

The term kenosis comes from the Greek word kenoo, translated "emptied" in chapter 2 of Paul's letter to the Philippians:

"Who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men." (Phil. 2:6-7 NASB)

What has come to be called "Kenotic theology" attempts to understand the incarnation of the second person of the Trinity in light of the kenosis of Phillippians 2:7. Its aim is to solve some of the supposed paradoxes arising from Jesus having both a divine nature and a human nature. For example, how could an all knowing God become a baby, how could God be tempted, or how could Jesus (being God) not know the time of His return?

The danger comes when it is concluded that in the incarnation, the second person of the Trinity took on human nature and gave up or lost some of the divine attributes -- such that Jesus was not fully divine. The doctrine of the two natures of Christ (known as the hypostatic union) maintains that Jesus possessed a full undiminished human nature and a full undiminished divine nature, which were not combined or confused into some new nature but were added to each other forever (yet remaining distinct) in the one person Jesus Christ.

The question regarding the kenosis comes to this -- What does it mean when Scripture says Christ "emptied" Himself? Did Jesus cease to be God during His earthly ministry?Certainly not, for deity cannot stop being deity or He would never have been true deity to begin with. Rather, the "emptying" is satisfactorily explained in the subsequent words of the verse, taking note of the two participles which grammatically modify and explain the verb: He emptied himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. This emptying, in fact, was done as the man Christ Jesus, and neither of these ideas necessitates or implies the giving up of divine attributes.

Christianity maintains that Jesus did not "empty" himself of any of his divinity in the incarnation, although it is true that his divine attributes were veiled. When the Kenosis theory concludes that Jesus is or was less than God (as has been the case in the past), it is regarded as heresy.

The Johnson problem

Bill Johnson, in order to support his theme of "we shall do greater works than Jesus," takes great pains in his teaching to stress that everything Jesus did, He did as a Spirit-filled man rather than as God. If, as Johnson says, “Christ” is not a title of deity but merely means "anointed one," we too can be anointed with the Holy Spirit so that we can do the miraculous works Jesus did. Not only that, we can do even greater works.

Jesus lived his earthly life with human limitations. He laid his divinity aside as He sought to fulfill the assignment given to Him by the Father: to live life as a man without sin, and then die in the place of mankind for sin.
-Bill Johnson, When Heaven Invades Earth

Many of Johnson's followers will go even further than Johnson in explicitly affirming a kenotic view of Jesus, often attributing Johnson as the source of their extreme view:

No, I don't see Jesus as having been ‘unwilling’ to act other than as a Man during the Incarnation. I believe (as Johnson) that He willingly set aside His divinity, came here as a Man, and was wholly unable and incapable of doing anything in and of Himself - just like us. By choice. When He was filled with Holy Spirit, He became capable - as do we. He Himself said that of Himself, He could do nothing. Jesus was a Man during the Incarnation. Period. I'm not sure how to state that any more clearly.
[Jesus] emptied Himself of His omnipotence while remaining fully God in his true essence.

If Jesus was God while on the earth, there would be no possible way for us to live
like him (it's hard enough as it is)! He, being man, showed us how to like in
perfect communion with God! We are to live like him. We even have the same
‘abilities’ (bad term, but I couldn't think of a better one) as he did! In fact
he said we would do greater things!

Christ forfeited (for a season) His deity in that He traded His seat in heavenly places for the cross so that we all could be with Him.

Divine means: emanating from Go...d [sic]. Jesus was and is divine. It was the Spirit of God in Him that made Him divine. We are also divine and supernatural through the Holy Spirit that lives in us.

Several of these statements were posted by Johnson’s followers in a Facebook discussion posted below) in which Johnson himself participated. They demonstrate the level of confusion that Johnson's teachings have spawned. The last comment, which states that "we are also divine," is heretical in a variety of respects. One might anticipate seeing an error of that degree expressed by the follower of a cult leader but surely not by the follower of a noteworthy evangelical pastor.

Recently fellow apologist W. B. McCarty discovered the following previously overlooked statement by Johnson in When Heaven Invades Earth:

For hundreds of years the prophets spoke of the Messiah's coming. They gave over 300 specific details describing Him. Jesus fulfilled them all! The angels also gave witness to His divinity when they came with a message for the shepherds: "For there is born to you this day . . . a Savior, who is Christ the Lord." Nature itself testified to the arrival of the Messiah with the star that led the wise men. Yet with this one statement, "Unless I do the works of the Father, do not believe Me," Jesus put the credibility of all these messengers on the line. Their ministries would have been in vain without one more ingredient to confirm who He really was. That ingredient was miracles.

Here Johnson seems to be affirming the full and unqualified deity of Christ during His incarnation on earth.

Jan Sherman, editor of Johnson's companion book, When Heaven Invades Earth Devotional and Journal, had this to say in the associated study questions:
Waxing theological again, what Johnson describes may comprise a functional kenosis (dealing with the job descriptions of the persons of the Godhead) as opposed to an ontological kenosis (dealing with their nature or concept of “Godness”). While I do not personally agree with functional kenosis, there is no theological consensus recognizing functional kenosis as heresy; ontological kenosis, on the other hand, entails explicit heresy.

The author [i.e., Johnson] emphasizes how important doing the works of the Father is, by comparing all the credentials Jesus had (prophetic voices, angelic witnesses, and nature's testimonials), to this one overarching credential. In your opinion, why did God bother to do all these other proofs of Jesus's divinity? Do you see their purpose within the context of His greatest credential?

Recall that Johnson elsewhere stated that Jesus “laid aside His divinity.” The orthodox Christian view, established since the fifth century, is that Jesus was (and remains) both fully and truly divine and fully and truly human. His divinity was veiled but not cast aside. We can spend a lot of time quibbling over the semantic nuances of veiled or cloaked divinity versus set aside or laid down divinity. However, in the quoted text, Johnson seems to be affirming the eternal divinity of Christ--that is, before, during and after the Incarnation. That’s precisely the key affirmation necessary to establish theological orthodoxy.

While we can say that, despite several incomplete or ambiguous statements that seem to affirm the contrary, Johnson does ultimately appear to affirm orthodoxy, we cannot say the same for many of his followers. We very much wish that Johnson would deal with the problem. However, much of Johnson's "greater things" theme hinges on his edgy teachings that closely approach the boundary of error. One may suppose that leaves him understandably reluctant to deal with the problem by clarifying his position. In any case Johnson has stated more than once that relationships are much more important (to him) than correct doctrine. And his teachings have a decidedly anti-intellectual bias that seems inconsistent with proper theological precision. So, if you anticipate the indicated clarification from Johnson, dream on.

What does Johnson say?

Johnson is fairly active these days on Facebook and Twitter. In fact, he is the indisputable master of soundbyte theology, which often turns on loaded language and false dichotomy. Johnson’s soundbyte theology doesn't do justice to crucial theological questions of the sort that careful thinkers across the centuries have written volumes to explain. So his response to a request for clarification was, as anticipated, rather simple or even simplistic:

Jesus was (and is) God. Eternally God. That never changed. But He chose to live with self imposed restriction while living on earth in the flesh - as a man. In doing so He defeated sin, temptation, the powers of darkness as a man. We inherit His victory - it was for us. He never sinned!-Bill Johnson, Facebook 3/21/2011

McCarty and I have discussed these recent clarifications and have agreed that in the light of this information we think it necessary and appropriate to revise our conclusion. We now consider that Johnson is best understood as espousing not ontological kenosis (which is heresy) but functional kenosis (which is not heresy). Functional kenosis, a relative newcomer on the theological stage, is distinct from the more traditional view that Jesus veiled his divinity. Those who hold the traditional view (veiled divinity) affirm that Jesus gave us occasional glimpses of his divinity ("he who has seen me has seen the Father") in such acts as calming the sea, turning water into wine, and other sundry miracles, signs and wonders. By these, he intended to reveal himself as the unique Son of God. Johnson’s view of functional kenosis ("self-imposed restriction") entails that Jesus’ miracles were done only by virtue of an anointing of the Holy Spirit on His ministry, and supports Johnson’s thematic claim that the same anointing is also available to us.

That we find it appropriate to revise our assessment is not to say that we have no serious problems with Johnson's teachings, which we continue to view as aberrant. Many people have noted the close parallels between his teachings and Hagin-style Word of Faith doctrine, including its notorious error that Jesus had to be born again. A more immediate problem for us is Johnson’s continual emphasis on "greater things."

The Greater things dilemma

To those who say we can do all that Jesus did McCarty often suggests--waggishly but with studied irony--that they get up on a cross, die, raise themselves from the dead on the third day, and save humanity from their sins.

Bob DeWaay, who has written an excellent critique of Johnson's kenosis and other issues with When Heaven Invades Earth, notes in personal correspondence that "his [Johnson's] approach means that things Jesus did during His earthly ministry that the gospel writers mention as proof of his divinity could no longer serve as such proof, even if only functional kenosis was being taught. If we can do what Jesus did, then we could prove that we are divine."

If the quotes from Johnson's followers cited above are taken at face value, it’s evident that at least one of them believes--contrary to everything true Christians have always believed--that we are divine.

It's not as though people have not pondered the meaning of “greater things.” It's a really good question. So think about it and be ready to join in the discussion. We will take up in detail the problem of "greater things" in a future installment.

UPDATE JUNE 20, 2011

Since I can't keep the link alive to the Facebook thread, I am posting the complete dialouge here. -Bill

Bill Johnson facebook 3/23/2011

Bill Fawcett Pastor Bill, you have said of Jesus that "When He became a man He forfeited
everything." I'm trying to understand what you mean by this. Did Jesus sin by becoming a man?
Phillipians 2 suggests that Jesus humbled Himself, but did He really give up his inheritance, did He irrevocalbly surrender His diety? Was there a chance that He COULD... HAVE FAILED in His mission, which was ordianed before the foundation of the world? Jesus, before his crucifixtion stated "Everything that the Father has is mine." How does that point to reinheritance?

Pehaps you can help me on these points. It's great stuff to think about.

Thanks.

Bill Fawcett   Where's muy spel-chekur ? LOL!

Julie Threadgill Powers   I, too, would love to hear your answer, Pastor Bill. I look forward to having my
confusion cleared up. Thanks.

Karen Blackford   Sin is not something you do - it is a condition you are. You are born in the wrong
family. He who knew no sin became sin for us so that we could change families. He did not sin He became sin. It's the great exchange.

Bill McClure   If there was no possibility for him to "fail his mission" (as you put it) was Satan's
temptation really a temptation?

Ray Robles   Hello, very valid questions!
Did Jesus sin by becoming a man? No. 1 John 3:5 "And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him we have no sin." v. 8-9 "He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the begi...nning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God."
Did He irrevocably surrender His diety? No. He forfeited it while on earth, but not irrevocably. Today, we pray in Jesus' name when we heal the sick. However, while on earth He was a man just like you and I. He lived the perfect example of a normal christian. It would be unfair for Him to expect us to heal the sick as He did and fulfill our commission if He was deity while on earth. He went to the Father. John 14:12.
Could He have failed? Yes. Jesus came to restore the Glory that man fell short of at the garden. God gave His dominion to man and Adam forfeited it. He not only disobeyed God but obeyed the serpent thus switching leaders and giving up his God given dominion to the devil. That's why God sent His son to become man, and reclaim dominion. Once God confirmed Jesus was His son after He was baptized, the devil knew He came to reclaim dominion; so he tempted Jesus to switch leaders and obey him just like he did to Adam in order to steal dominion again. Jesus could have failed but He didn't. Now we have been commanded to cancel the assignment of the enemy and He not only lived the example of how to do it as a man...but has given us Holy Spirit to empower us to do so. We have Jesus, and Holy
Spirit...no excuse for powerlessness.
I'm far from Bill Johnson but I hope this helps :)

Bill McCarty Okay, I'm having some trouble getting my head around these issues. If Jesus forfeited deity, would it have been sin to worship him while he was on earth?

Ray Robles No. The term "deity" is a man made philosphical term that Jesus is not confined to. His disciples gave up everything to follow Him, to serve Him, to learn from Him, and be with Him.
Those are all acts of worship. Regardless of the fact that... Jesus lived with the limitations of man does not change the fact that He is still the Son of God, in whom He is well pleased. Matt 3:17. What we do know is this: He is the son of God, We can't get to the Kingdom except through Him, Any and all affirmities must flee in His name, He is currently seated at the right hand of the Father. Hope it helps. If you still have trouble with this, on Bill Johnson's website he has an article on what our approach should be with the mysteries of God. Mysteries should be valued. A huge liberating revelation for people with tough questions. Here's the link: http://www.bjm.org/content/13/the-value-of-mystery.html

Bill McClure Great comments Ray...

Bill McClure If Jesus was God while on the earth, there would be no possible way for us to live like him (it's hard enough as it is)! He, being man, showed us how to like in perfect communion with God! We are to live like him. We even have the same "abilities" (bad term, but I couldn't think of a better one) as he did! In fact he said we would do greater things! It is amazing to think, but it is right from his mouth!

Bill McCarty Okay, I hadn't thought about the disciples following him as being worship, since at first they didn't know that he was Messiah. So are you saying it was okay for them to worship him even though he was not divine?

Bill Fawcett Ray, you said "The term "deity" is a man made philosphical term that Jesus is not confined to." That seems rather radical, and I've never heard anything like this before. Is this someting taught at Bethel ? (I'm on the east coast) .

Bill McCarty Isn't deity the same as divinity?

Bill Johnson Jesus was (and is) God. Eternally God. That never changed. But He chose to live with self imposed restriction while living on earth in the flesh - as a man. In doing so He defeated sin, temptation, the powers of darkness as a man. We inherit His victory - it was for us. He never sinned!

Ray Robles There are only 2 times that Jesus marveled in the Bible. He marveled at faith, and the lack of it. Faith moves the Father, and thusly moves Jesus. Faith plays a pivotal role in the disciples following Jesus.
Divine means: emanating from Go...d. Jesus was and is divine. It was the Spirit of God in Him that made Him divine. We are also divine and supernatural through the Holy Spirit that lives in us. He came to Earth having seen the works of the Father, and not only demonstrated the works of the Father, but empowered us with the Holy Spirit so that we can also do the works of the Father. Notice how the disciples began doing miracles after they saw Jesus, and were filled with the Spirit in the Upper Room.
When we become born again we are more than saved from hell...we are made divine and supernatural because of the Spirit of God in us.
With that being said, Jesus was divine and supernatural. He came to show how a person confined with the limitations of being human is supposed to live when the Spirit of God is deposited in them through baptism in the Holy Spirit. Jesus was the Word that was with God in the beginning, before He became flesh. Jesus always was and is the Son of God; and for that reason: YES, it's always was and is OK to worship Jesus. ALWAYS! There's no way one could ever convince me that worshiping Jesus is a sin.Never in a million years. Hope this helps.

Bill Fawcett Great, now as to my original questions, Pastor Bill, you have said of Jesus that "When He became a man He forfeited everything." I'm trying to understand what you mean by this. Did Jesus sin by becoming a man?
Phillipians 2 suggests that Jes...us humbled Himself, but did He really give up his inheritance, did He irrevocalbly surrender His diety? Was there a chance that He COULD... HAVE FAILED in His mission, which was ordianed before the foundation of the world?
Jesus, before his crucifixtion stated "Everything that the Father has is mine." How does that point to reinheritance?

Ray Robles It looks like there's a difference in the way we define divine. I certainly didn't mean to imply that we are deity. Read Romans 8:1-17, then read 2 Corinthianns 3: 17-18. Verse 18 says it all "But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as ...in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as by the spirit of the Lord." Christ killed our flesh and took up residency in our spirits. Therefore if our flesh is dead, and the Spirit that raised Christ from the dead has taken it's place (Romans 8:11) and I, with unveiled face, beholding as in a MIRROR the glory of the Lord, am being transformed into the same image from glory to glory...this means I am supernatural. Not because of me, my flesh is dead and I am made supernatural because of the Spirit of God that lives in me. I have dual citizenship in both heaven and earth right now, and am seated in heavenly places (Eph 2:6). If I am supernatural, and the kingdom of God is at hand, and God's will is for His kingdom to come on earth as it is in heaven...that's a right now word! It's my duty to cancel the assignment of the enemy, and I can not do it in the flesh or by the flesh. The problem is, the church tends to be satisfied with accomplishments that can be done through human talent and goodness. God has deposited too much in us to not be functioning supernaturally. Like Bill Johnson says: "If you are not walking in the miraculous you are living far below your birthright." We need to prophecy, heal the sick, raise the dead. The world has enough powerless christians. That's why the world goes to fortune tellers, reads horoscopes, are fascinated by demonic exorcism movies, etc. They want power, and they're getting it from the wrong source because not enough christians are tapping into their birthright.
"Operating in kingdom power attracts the world and offends the religous" (Bill Johnson). This is what Bethel teaches, my church (ICLV), Harvest Christian Center, Morning Star, all do as well. I'm sure there are a lot more that do as well. Hopefully that cleared it up some for you :)

Ray Robles Steve Thompson from Morning Star (a really prophetic church) spoke at my church in our prophetic conference a couple of months ago regarding this very subject. He now lives in Redding and partners with Bill Johnson and the Bethel team. The ...Sermon is called "Supernatural Transformation."
I left those sermon notes in my wifes car so I just tried recounting what I remember from scripture and his sermon. If you have itunes that very sermon was recorded that day and you can find it on itunes.Type: "iclv message of the week." then click on the icon. His sermon is the tenth one, called "Supernatural Transformation" by Steve Thompson. it's well worth it, you can download video or audio for free. I guarantee it will give you a greater understanding of the supernatural and change your life!

John Borelli Christ forfeited (for a season) His deity in that He traded His seat in heavenly places for the cross so that we all could be with Him. Imagine the president of the US coming to your house to clean your toilet! Christ humbled Himself so m...uch more than this:
Heb 12:2 looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God.

Bill Fawcett Thanks Ray, that does help. yes, when I say divine I certainly don't mean those "who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit." Funny you should mention those passages, because I prophesied around of Romans 8:11 on Sun...day.
But, no I don't think those passages suggest that Christ killed our flesh, or that our flesh is dead. If that was the case, we wouldn't have to bring our flesh under subjection as Paul exhorts in I Corinthians 9:27. Jesus himself told us that the spirit indeed is willing but the flesh is weak (Matthew 26:41).
Granted, we should not live "in the flesh," but practically speaking the flesh will be only dead when 1) we cease to breathe or 2) we are caught away. The we shall be like Him (but still won't be deity). I'm curious though. If you did not mean to imply that we are deity (whew!), but you said Jesus was divine and you said we are also divine, was Jesus, when he walked on the earth, deity?

Bill Fawcett John, Here's the thing. If someone says "Mankind's authority to rule was forfeited when Adam ate the forbidden fruit" I can understand what they mean in the context of the "Satan's Gain" theory. Now, we all know that to forfeit means to los...e or have confiscated something because of some fault, offense or crime, a breach of contract or by treason. In otherwords, sin.
So, if Jesus Christ did not sin, "he never sinned," as Pastor Bill stated above, how did he forfeit His deity? Or back to the original quotation, what does "When He became a man He forfeited everything" mean?
The quote about Adam above comes from WHIE, page 11. In that context, it is clear that there is an understanding what the word forfeit means. Most football fans know what forfeit means.
I don't want to get picky, but I am perplexed by statements such as "(Jesus) forfeited everything."
Which is why I hope that Pastor Bill can clear this up.
Would appreciate your further thoughts, as well.

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Tags: Bethel Church, BSSM, Bethel School of Supenatural Ministry, Bill Johnson, When Heaven Invades Earth, Redding, Kenosis, Kenotic Heresy, Functional Kenosis, Ontological Kenosis, Divinity of Christ, Incarnation

For further study: An Invasion of Error, A review of Bill Johnson – When Heaven Invades Earth by Bob DeWaay. link.

Mike Bickle Second Home?

2011-04-08T11:59:00.005-04:00

Last month an anonymous poster on our Kansas City Finances article stated "Even when I find out (that) Mike and Dianne (Bickle) had another home huge home in Belton I stayed quiet." Elsewhere in the blogosphere I found a similar comment: "Oh yes and I know Mike Bickle does own another house in Belton that was exposed about 2 years ago but it is all hush hush nobody goes against speaking about Mike." This comment has since been removed from that site, perhaps by the poster. So why mention this? I think it points out one of the weaknesses of the internet- in that stuff is repeated without verification. After a while, it becomes fact. Why would this be a big deal in the first place? Defenders of Mike Bickle make a big point of his austerity. Look at some of these quotes:

"I have lived in simplicity all my adult life and love it," he says, adding he gives away hundreds of thousands of dollars in annual income from his books and tapes. He and his wife live in a nearby duplex, and he raises about $35,000 as an annual salary from friends and supporters. Those earnings, he says, are supplemented by his wife's earnings as a real estate agent. "I want to live as minimally as possible" he says, "to give more away." "Opulence is not part of his message. Bickle and his wife live in a modest duplex on Calico Drive near IHOP. He drives a Toyota."Mike believes he has to live simply if he's going to attract young people," said Hall." "One look at the IHOP director’s closet-size office or modest duplex house (shared with his mother-in-law) and it’s obvious he isn’t too concerned about prestige, money or fame."

The last quotation is from a recent article in Charisma Magazine. If there was any credibility to the assertions of a second more lavish house, it would make it appear that the Calico Drive house was just a front. And some would find that disturbing. What do we know? Diane Bickle is president of Glad Heart Properties, Inc (Mike was Vice-President through 2008) and it is very likely that Glad Heart owns dozens of residences as investment properties. So it would not be unusual to find out that they owned more than one residence. The question is not ownership, the question is use. Mike and Diane Bickle listed a duplex at 813 Cimmarron Trail in Belton, Mo, as their residence on corporation documents (Glad Heart) from 2000 through 2008. In 2009, they switched the address to a duplex 11300 Calico Drive, Kansas City, Mo., which is just a few minutes from the prayer room. Tax records indicate that this duplex (Calico) is owned by Diane and Mike Bickle. Reportedly the mother-in-law shares this duplex with them. The Belton duplex appears slightly larger than the Calico duplex, both appear to be modest residences as reported. So, as the police would say: "move along, nothing to see here." If indeed is was EXPOSED about 2 years ago that the Bickle's maintain a huge home in Belton, it wasn't EXPOSED too well, because the information is not available. If someone has credible information, come forth. Otherwise, let us not be distracted by such accusations, stop repeating the stories, and turn our attention to where it belongs- doctrine and practice.

The Seamy Underbelly of the Elijah List

2011-04-04T08:35:00.007-04:00

Perhaps some of my readers are yet unaware of the Elijah List, an Internet posting site for prophecies from within the Apostolic/Prophetic movement. It is the place to go to read prophecies about things such as earthquakes AFTER the fact. And generally so vague that they could fit just about anything. Along with the usual "new breed" "new thing" prophetic words, sometimes there are very bold warnings. I recall a multitude of such prophecies before the supposed Y2K computer/civilization meltdown. My claim to fame is that they did not publish the prophetic word I submitted, which in a nutshell stated "Nothing is going to happen." For a prophetic bunch, they have so little discernment. (Amazingly, I made the same statement on a Y2K panel at a major national engineering conference and the "word" was well received.) On the Elijah List, there is no accountability. After the election in November 2004, Bill Yount proclaimed "I Saw Angels Turning Cartwheels Over the Nation's Capitol, Shouting...'WE ARE ON A HOLY ROLL!'" Yount goes on to state:

A vote for righteousness on November 2nd seemed to shake down an avalanche of angels over Washington D.C. as the White House began to be decorated with yellow-gold ribbons. I heard the Father proclaiming, "Salvation is coming to My House... The White House will become a Light House with a burning fire, branding nations for eternity during the next four years!" I believe we will see a whole nation born again in one day in the next four years somewhere in the earth!

At last count, the Elijah List has published more than 50 words from Yount since that time. And the generic excuse offered? Steve Shultz, the editor of the Elijah List, thinks that we simply need the so-called "Issachar anointing."

"If one has this Issachar anointing, it makes for a very accurate prophet, especially as it relates to timing. Timing is the hardest thing for most prophets and prophetic people to get right." -Steve Shultz

Speaking of "accurate" prophets, Bob Jones has had more than 100 words published on the Elijah List. Shultz says that Jones is a "high level" prophet. And he is revered by such A/P notables as Rick Joyner, Todd Bentley, Patricia King and Mike Bickle. So I was much amused last fall when Jones has this to say in his annual "Shepherd's Rod" prognostication, given on the Day of Atonement.

"The next thing He [God] said is that there had been a delay. That He gave promises 2 and 3 years ago. If you have got the 08 Shepherd's Rod, He said to re-do this year in the Shepherd's Rod. Several things in the Shepherd's Rod is going to come forth. One thing that is strong in the Shepherd's rod is that the women are going to come forth. Another way is a carpet is laid in the desert to get you out of the desert."

This is the prophetic equivalent of a "get out of Jail Free" card, and is akin to the classic self-verifying "Thus saith the Lord, hear the words of my servant, for he is speaking my word." Who can argue with that? Obviously, the Elijah List is just publishing these so-called prophecies, which brings up the question of what is the nature of prophecy for today. The operative phrase is "Foretelling vs. Forthtelling." I will go with forthtelling, thank you. The emphasis on foretelling- without accountability - is probably the major thing wrong with the Apostolic/Prophetic movement's embrace of the prophetic today. Leaving aside the arguments about what to do with "false prophets," it would be nice to hear at least one of them say "I screwed up, I was wrong." The Elijah list has brought a lot of publicity to the prophets, and the prophets have brought a lot of profit to the Elijah list.

"What I do wish, if anything, is that the Truth would be revealed. I would hope that the Holy Spirit would convict those who need it, that they would repent and get right with God and, either step down, or start being True Prophets. But most of all, I would also hope that all who read this would have their eyes opened and that they would be made free from this growing deception." -Kevin Kleint

Kevin Klient worked for the Elijah List for seven years. Kevin says "The very day that I walked away from the Elijah List and the prophetic movement, the Blessing of God came back to my house." I would invite you to read Kevin's story and consider the nature of this movement for yourself.
Tags: Glory, Grace Covenant Church Harrisonburg, gcch.org,JMU-HOP, jmuhop, theprayerfurnace, Fredericksburg Prayer Furnace, 24-7 Virginia, Chi Alpha, IHOP, David Bradshaw, Randy Martinez, Solemn Assembly, Prayer Room, Campus Strike Force, Awaken the Dawn

IHOP - More Testimonies

2011-03-13T21:19:00.002-04:00

Testimony of a Former IHOP-KC Attendee: Stephanie

I started feeling really weird about some things that were being done and said there, so I took it to the Lord, as any “Berean” should. I started looking up the scriptures my teachers would give us in handouts to explain some of their doctrines, and I realized that not one of those scriptures had anything to do with those doctrines.

As I read more scripture, I also began to realize that much of what they were teaching and practicing was extremely unbiblical and even dangerous. We were constantly fasting and in the prayer room. After starting to eat more and going to the prayer room a little less, I felt my head start to clear up and I didn’t like what I was seeing and how I felt. More.

Former IHOP KC Leader’s Testimony: “Ihop is a cult”

So when many say this is a place that one can go deeper. Yes, it is, but only if you seek the truth in the scriptures by His Spirit and not the interpretations that someone twists them for all to believe. If you seek, this place is a place where you can actually say that God uses ALL things, even bad things, for your good for those that are in Him. I have a friend that was a Jehovah’s Witness. In his seeking scriptures vs. what was being taught to him, he is now on fire for God because he walks in the freedom that Jesus died and rose again to give us. IHOP-KC does more damage than good for the kids seeking the Lord. It thwarts their thinking and even relationship with Jesus and the Father. More.

Please thoughtfully consider Pastor Scott Pursley's article IHOP- The Perils of Passion as well as other testimonies posted on this website.

IHOP - The Perils of Passion

2011-02-16T14:57:00.027-05:00

How IHOP is misleading a generation of young people with false prophecy and false teaching and promoting an elitist spirit within the body of Christ.

In our last two posts we have looked at some personal experiences regarding IHOP. In this installment, we will look at the foundations of IHOP and where that has led to today.

Scott Pursley is the Senior Pastor at Lamb of God Fellowship in Livingston, NJ. He is a teacher who is well grounded in the Word. This article was originally presented in sermon form (mp3) last September. I'd like to thank Pastor Scott for reformatting his notes for publication at BeyondGrace.

The International House of Prayer, located in Kansas City Missouri is principally the vision of one man, its founder and chief doctrinal spokesman, Mike Bickle. Therefore a critique of IHOP is in the final analysis a critique of Mike Bickle’s teaching ministry. However, because of the unusual beginnings of Mr. Bickle’s ministry and rise to national prominence it is also necessary to focus on the teaching/preaching ministries of two alleged prophets, Paul Cain and Bob Jones. Their ministries are parallel developments and significantly influence and shape Mr. Bickle’s perception of IHOP’s divinely authorized origins.

The multi-million dollar ministry that is IHOP has it roots in the modest beginnings of the Kansas City Fellowship of the early 1980’s. According to Mr. Bickle, IHOP is a direct fulfillment of prophecies delivered to him by Bob Jones and Paul Cain. Repeatedly Mr. Bickle has declared that no one has been more integral to establishing the prophetic in his ministry than Bob Jones. Part of the mythology of Mr. Jones legendary status as a prophet are numerous false prophecies, now largely forgotten. These include claims of California being destroyed, nuclear weapons being detonated on the East and West Coast, and an oft repeated story of a drought confirming special ‘divine’ authorization on Mr. Bickle’s ministry.

From the very early days of Mr. Bickle’s ministry he adapted his own version of the so called ‘Latter Rain’ teaching of the late 1940’s made popular principally through the writing of George Warnock’s ‘Feast of Tabernacles’ (As well as a hand full of other, now obscure Pentecostal heretics). This parallel has been pointed out to Mr. Bickle on numerous occasions necessitating a public denial of IHOP’s dependance on Latter Rain teaching. However, no actual substantive explanation has ensued from Mr. Bickle regarding this allegation. The false teacher and Latter Rain proponent William Branham was very influential in the theological formation of the disgraced prophet Paul Cain. Paul Cain in turn influenced greatly both Bob Jones (who frequently referred to Mr. Cain as the greatest prophet of God on the earth) and Mike Bickle who often appeared with Mr. Cain in large venues around the U.S.

The late 1980’s saw the public challenge of Mr. Bickle’s ministry by another local Kansas City pastor Ernie Gruen. Rev. Gruen produced a lengthy document attempting to document the numerous outrageous claims, false prophecies and false teachings made by Mr. Bickle, Mr. Cain and Mr. Jones. This document remains unchallenged, and Rev. Gruen stood by its truthfulness without wavering until his death several years ago. In the years after this public challenge Mr. Jones would be exposed as a sexual deviate engaged in horrendous manipulation of female congregants and Mr. Cain as a profligate homosexual and alcoholic. In spite of these very public scandals, Mr. Bickle’s current ministry appears undaunted and unaffected by the well established facts of the above history.

What are the specific errors of IHOP?

IHOP continues to draw a great deal of its sense of special calling and destiny from the alleged prophets Bob Jones and Paul Cain. This in spite of the well known track record of both men. Every matriculating ‘One Thing’ intern is required to listen to a lengthy prophetic history of IHOP/KCF as part of their training while resident at the IHOP program. At no point is their any mention of the numerous false prophecies or profound moral failures of these men. In 2009 Mr. Bickle refreshed IHOP’s teaching on its alleged prophetic history in an 8 part series detailing the role of prophecy in establishing IHOP’s divine origins. But what false teachings emerge from the prophetic hoopla?

That prior to the return of Jesus, and as a necessary condition of Christ’s return - apostles and prophets of unparalleled spiritual power, and prophetic accuracy will arise to guide the church into its final days.

To anyone who knows anything about the so-called ‘Latter Rain Movement’ of the late 40’s this teaching will sound quite reminiscent of that movements emphasis on unprecedented latter day prophets and apostles.
This idea cannot be sustained by an appeal to the plain teaching of the N.T. Nowhere do we read of a single promise of some future ‘super’ class of latter day prophets and apostles. I challenge any teacher to make the case for the clear teaching of this idea anywhere in the N.T. It cannot be the case that something as consequential to the entire church would have no plain biblical foundation, but only appeals to present ‘prophetic’ spokesmen and allegorical applications of scripture.

That a ‘perfected church’ walking in unparalleled supernatural power (raising the dead will become ordinary, and no illness will be able to stand before this perfected church), will arise as a pre-condition of Christ’s return.
1. These claims have been repeatedly made for the past 60 years by Latter Rain influenced teachers as well as the disgraced prophet Paul Cain (in his famous ‘stadium visions’) as well as Bob Jones.
2. Once again, like the claim of super prophets and apostles, the claim of a ‘perfected church’ cannot be sustained by an appeal to the clear teaching of the N.T. The notion that verses which speak of the church growing up to maturity, or unity being used to substantiate claims of a coming super church are dubious at best.
Mr. Bickle teaches that prior to the return of Christ, a special class of Christians called ‘forerunners’ will be raised up to prepare the church for the return of Christ.
1. IHOP’s defines ‘forerunner’ in the following way: Forerunners are messengers who proclaim “now” what the Holy Spirit is “soon” to emphasize in a universal way across the nations. They are “one short step” ahead of what the Holy Spirit is about to openly release, so they can prepare the people to respond rightly to Jesus by making known God’s plans so the people can make sense of what will happen before it actually happens.
2. IHOP has developed so many specialized ‘terms’ that it became necessary to write and post a glossary on their web site. Dr. Andrew Jackson writing of this phenomena states: A cautionary red light should go on whenever we discover any church or Christian movement creating, and extensively using, their own exclusive language. The habitual use of insider language by a Christian movement can develop a “we-are-different culture” within the greater church. Soon a person’s use of prescribed terms and phrases is the way to determine whether they are true “insiders.” It can also easily create a “us” and “them” attitude within the Body of Christ. Many Christians living within such a cloistered culture can often find it difficult to leave or relate with other Christians, who do not speak “their language,” and who are frequently seen as spiritually luke-warm or compromising.
3. This teaching of a special class was not the first time Mr. Bickle and his associated ministry had set forth this kind of teaching. In the mid 80’s and into the 90’s the term favored by Mr. Bickle and his resident prophets Bob Jones and Paul Cain was the ‘New Breed’. Some 50 years before a small but influential group called the Latter Rain taught the same ideas under the name the ‘overcomers’ – George Warnock wrote in 1951 - Christ is going to remain right where He is at God’s right hand until there shall arise a group of overcomers who shall conquer over all God’s enemies. This is really no different than Bickle’s words - "He is not coming any day. He is not coming until the people of God globally are crying out in intercession with a bridal identity under the anointing of the Spirit. Right now the prayer movement is growing fast….really fast! But when I say it's growing fast instead of one percent of the Body of Christ taking hold of it, maybe 10 percent. It's….you know it's like 10 times bigger than it was a generation ago, but beloved as fast as the prayer movement is growing, where people are getting hold of it, still for 90 percent of the Body of Christ it's not even on their mind. Jesus is not coming until the Body of Christ globally is crying out "Come Lord Jesus, Come Lord Jesus, Come Lord Jesus" and they don't just say "come and forgive me" they are crying out in the understanding of who they are as the one that is cherished by Jesus in the bridal identity.”
IHOP teaches as a pre-condition of the return of Christ, the church must be crying out 24/7 ‘Come, Lord, Jesus Come with a full understanding of the so-called ‘ bridal identity’.
1. IHOP's own self-understanding is that it has been given the task and calling of informing the entire church globally of this necessity. This task will be fulfilled by establishing Houses of Prayer all around the world and engaging in 24/7 prayer. (Just as an aside this requires 84 2-hour slots of worship/prayer per week and incredibly expensive undertaking.)

Conclusions: I believe that IHOP is promoting a version of Christianity that is rooted in false prophecies and false prophets. There is a clear link between the IHOP of 2010 and the claims of divine authorization from the early 1980’s and Kansas City Fellowship. A great deal of the intensity and bold assertions to do what they do come directly from the false prophets Bob Jones and Paul Cain. Second, there are troubling examples of Mike Bickle knowingly continuing claims that have been shown to be false. Stories that allegedly authenticate the divine origins of Paul Cain and Bob Jones have been proven false, but are still circulated by the ministry. There has been no serious effort by IHOP to disassociate itself with the words of men who so thoroughly qualify as false prophets. The central claims made by IHOP regarding its legitimacy – The rise of new apostles and prophets (as sources of authority); the end times revival of unprecedented signs and wonders; the necessity of the church embracing the bridal paradigm; the emergence of a special class called the ‘forerunners’ are not taught by the Scriptures. These ideas own more to the independent Pentecostal movement of the mid 1940’s called the Latter Rain (a connection IHOP is well aware that others have made, and their response is to simply deny it) than to the plain teaching of the Word of God.

IHOP in its previous incarnation as the Kansas City Fellowship has a track record of stirring up division with promises of ‘amazing power and greatly expanded ministry. Leaders were told that they would be speaking to multitudes, seeing miracles, witnessing to kings and presidents and enjoying tremendous blessings… None of these things came to pass. Nearly 20 years ago Mike Bickle acknowledged a spirit of elitism had characterized the KCF. But the same teachings that produced it were replicated again in the ministry of IHOP and its so-called ‘Forerunner’ calling. Tom Stipe remarked in his testimony published as the forward to Hank Hanegraaff’s book called Counterfeit Revival: “Not long after ‘prophecy du jour’ became the primary source of direction, a trail of devastated believers began to line up outside our pastoral counseling offices. Young people promised teen success and stardom through prophecy were left picking up the pieces of their shattered hopes because God had apparently gone back on his promises…” One of the things Tom Stipe stated in his testimony – “We listened intently to the flattery of our new friends, the prophets. Our skepticism barely peaked above the surface.” This is precisely what scriptures warns about concerning false prophets and false teachers: ‘by smooth talk and flattery the deceive the hearts of the naïve.’ (Romans 16:18b)

Consistently the false prophets of the KCF/IHOP circle prophesied ‘visions of their own minds, not from the mouth of the Lord’ (either because what they prophesied did not come to pass or what it taught was not biblical). Consistently they spoke of angels, and going on in detail about visions (warned against in Col. 2:18) Consistently they spoke of frequent angel visitations, trips to heaven almost at will, bizarre teachings about ‘bloodlines’, conversations with dead saints, face to face meetings with Jesus etc. In precisely the very way that scripture warned about false prophets confirming one another’s words – the false prophets of KCF/IHOP confirmed one another with flattery upon flattery. Yet 2 Peter 2 warns of those false prophets like Bob Jones and Paul Cain who follow their sensuality and who ‘because of their conduct bring disgrace on the way of truth.’ Peter even warns that they have ‘eyes full of adultery and are insatiable for sin’, the very character of the man who Mike Bickle and others called the ‘greatest prophet on the earth’ – Paul Cain. It is precisely this kind of hypocrisy that Jesus and the apostles warned about and against.

It is because of these things that we must warn against involvement with IHOP. Its foundation built upon the words of false prophets, its core teaching’s insistence on a hyped-up mixture of elitism, reliance on subjectivity and mysticism, and teaching which cannot be sustained by the plain reading of the scriptures compel us to warn. Consider the words of a former intern from the One Thing Internship:

This is a very close paraphrase of what I’ve heard many, many times at One Thing, IHOP conferences and in teachings by leaders: “YOU are called to be on the cutting edge. Come here and join a community of other people who are like you, called to what you’re called to. We understand you. You’ve been mis-understood in the church. You’ve had your wings clipped, your gifts misunderstood. Here you can fulfill your forerunner calling that your family just hasn’t understood about you. You might feel like you don’t fit back home, you’re on the outside, no one understands the fire in you. Well we get it. You are the leaders that G-d is raising up in these end times and you will be kings and queens on the earth—reigning with Him. You were made for this place. IHOP is an incubator for people like you.”

Narcissistic speeches like this instill a sense of pride, arrogance and elitism in the hearts of youth who hear it and it feeds their need for validation and identity. They run to IHOP, leave their families, join internships…hoping that what they’ve heard is true. They go to IHOP looking for identity…instead of finding it in Jesus. Once outside of the IHOP environment, they are terrified and overwhelmed by the “real” world and don’t know how to function in it when they’ve been in an intensive internship environment. There is a degree of re-acclimating to normal life that feels like an IHOP detox afterward. It’s a severe emotional drop because the hyped up services and conferences that were your manna are now gone and when there is no prayer room, your life in God feels empty and lifeless. Many simply don’t know how to engage with God in a real day-to-day basis once they’ve left. I experienced this and heard the exact same thing from a handful of my friends after they left IHOP and the internship. At that point when disillusionment sets in, I know many interns that walked away from God completely upon leaving the internship and went back into lifestyles worse than the ones they left when they came to IHOP originally.” May God have mercy on those who teach these pernicious lies and bring them to a place of humble repentance and renunciation of what cannot succeed and will only in the long run bring disillusionment, and profound discouragement to the thousands of young people who are held in its destructive grasp.

See also: Red Flags over IHOP - Devotion or Deception? The Mother of all IHOP Caualties Revisionism and The Blueprint Prophecy Tags: Glory, Grace Covenant Church Harrisonburg, gcch.org,JMU-HOP, jmuhop, theprayerfurnace, Fredericksburg Prayer Furnace, 24-7 Virginia, Chi Alpha, IHOP, David Bradshaw, Randy Martinez, Solemn Assembly, Prayer Room, Campus Strike Force

The Mother of all IHOP Casualties

2011-02-14T09:38:00.010-05:00

I have written much about IHOP over the years, but recently felt led to publish some first hand accounts. Anecdotes will never take the place of careful doctrinal consideration, but at some point anecdotal evidence (fruit) must be considered. We will return to that doctrinal review later this week, but right now there are more stories that need to be told.

The author of today's article will remain anonymous to the readers of this blog, but I want you to understand that these are not just stories I have picked up from the internet. I have closely corresponded with the author for 8 months; the experiences are real and the source is credible.

Kansas City is really kind of like a small town; at least the Christian community feels that way. I have been a Christian for over 30 years now, and have lived all of those years in Kansas City. As a result, I have been able to meet many other Christians in this city. Because many churches have come and gone, ebbed and flowed, and also many people have done a fair amount of church hopping, one’s circle of friends and acquaintances can be broad. As a result, I have had a birds‐eye‐view into the lives of a number of persons who’ve jumped onto the IHOP bandwagon, only to be found in a ditch at a later date.

While grieving over yet another IHOP casualty, I decided to document some of the other disasters leading up to what I now consider to be The Mother of All IHOP Casualties. These people are real people, with real families, and have real lives to live. And, these people are up close and personal to either me, or my family, or close friends I consider family. I have changed the names, and minor details, to protect their privacy.

“Donald”

The first casualty that comes to mind, within my circle of acquaintances, would be Pastor Donald (name changed). Pastor Donald happened to have been my own personal pastor back before we all packed our bags, left our churches, and invested ourselves in Kansas City Fellowship (KCF). Pastor Donald truly had a pastor’s heart. He was brought on board as one of the leaders serving in that role, particularly to the young singles in the group. Over time, he found himself accused of having a lustful heart, as his attentions to the young women were deemed inappropriate. There was never any allegation of wrongdoing, only that he appeared very cozy in conjunction with visiting with them. Long story short, he was ultimately dismissed, because Mike Bickle was convinced he had a heart of lust, and that was enough to let him go before something DID happen.

I use this particular example as it reveals that the very accusation someone might be lustful led to Pastor Donald’s dismissal. The egregious incidences of actual sexual impropriety by Bob Jones only resulted in his dismissal from ministering in Kansas City, but he continued on as a prophet in good standing. Augustine Acolla’s prophecies are foundational to the forerunner “move of God” to this day. As are Paul Cain’s. And all of these men did more than just appear to act inappropriately. They participated in immoral behavior. Doesn’t seem quite fair.

Pastor Donald hasn’t found, nor does he seem to be interested in finding, a church home. He leads a peaceful and quiet life and doesn’t seem to miss the church scene much at all. I guess, compared to the other casualties, his story doesn’t end on such a sad note.

“Candace”

Then there is Candace. Candace and her family moved to Kansas City in order to be part of the prayer room. Candace home schooled her children as well. She was very involved in attending many prayer meetings throughout the week. Her children were sometimes with her in the prayer room, and oftentimes at home, working on their studies. More often, these children could be found at Melissa’s house, a neighbor of Candace’s who also home schooled her own children. Melissa regularly took care of
Candace’s children while Candace prayed. Now, people have all kinds of arrangements they work out with others in order to help with their busy lives. However, Melissa just inherited responsibility for these kids by default. Candace defaulted. Melissa saw a need there and tried to fill it. She was never asked to take on this responsibility.

My concern for Candace and her family, at the time I was aware of all of this, arose from observation that her children were having some social difficulties that were spilling over into Melissa’s home. Candace’s husband was growing less enamored with IHOP and more frustrated with Candace’s praying lifestyle. Their family began falling apart before my eyes ‐ and that’s when the affair began. The affair between Melissa and Candace’s husband.

Since then both couples have divorced, and after many years have passed, neither of these families has ever been the same. Few of their children are walking with the Lord (both families were Christian) and neither set of parents are. Do I consider these families an IHOP casualty? Well, where were the IHOP leaders who take the scriptures in Titus seriously? I believe Candace had an unhealthy addiction to the prayer room that took her away from the family she needed to be taking care of. I am not giving Melissa and Candace’s husband a free pass. They chose their path, and are greatly responsible for the demise of the marriages.

“Marion”

Marion is another young woman who came to Kansas City for a one year internship at IHOP. She and her boyfriend came from out of state. He actually participated in a different church’s discipleship program during his time in Kansas City, and she spent many hours in the prayer room as was required. During the latter part of her stay she was caught in a, shall we say, compromising situation with a young man who also was involved in the same internship program. Well, her boyfriend, understandably, broke off their relationship, with her pleading that he give her another chance.

Shortly after she left the internship program, she did not know how to function in the real world as a Christian. She didn’t know how to serve God outside of the prayer room, since that was all she was taught to do. She soon fell away from the Lord.

“Anne”

Marion also had a roommate named Anne. Anne and Marion met at IHOP and became roommates in connection with that ministry. Anne couldn’t afford the cost of the IHOP internship and realized that it was necessary for her to spend her dollars on actually learning a skill that would support her. She went to school, and became quite good at what she does in the field of cosmetology, with the hope that, once she earned enough money, she could take a leave of absence and fulfill her dream of attending an internship at IHOP as well.

After a time, she became interested in a very nice young man, albeit, a nice unbelieving young man. Their relationship went the way so many relationships go, in a very worldly manner. She ended up investing two years of her life hoping that he would eventually come to the Lord, all the while justifying their immoral relationship along the same lines other “missionary daters” justify theirs. Well, he didn’t come to the Lord and she finally woke up and smelled the coffee and sent him on his way. I mention her in regards to IHOP because her theology was screwed up. She seemed to feel more badly about not being able to participate in the prayer room than being in a wrong relationship. It was upside down and backwards.

Thankfully, she has totally repented and is doing well today. I am so glad she was never able to participate in that much longed for internship.

“Catherine”

Catherine was another home‐schooled child who spent much of her high school years in the prayer room. This young lady gave all of her time to this place. I mean, all of it. She was, and still is, very sharp, and somehow, did keep up with her studies as she has gone on to medical school. But she is now a hard hearted and bitter self‐proclaimed atheist. I don’t know what happened to her during her stay there. Perhaps it cannot be blamed on that time spent in the prayer room. I only know that she left there very bitter and cynical. Why didn’t all this time there cause her walk with the Lord to be more steadfast and steady?

Catherine’s mother was an avid participant as well. Catherine’s siblings also spent a lot of time there. Catherine’s mother has since seen much that was not right about that place and attributes Catherine’s spiritual demise to her time spent there. And, sadly, all of Catherine’s siblings want nothing to do with the Lord. Not atheists, just fed up with what they’ve seen representing the Church.

Catherine’s mother is one of the only persons in my sphere of influence who’s had an ear to hear what I’ve had to say, and is quite hungry to learn the truth contained in the scriptures, for which I rejoice.

A Mine Field of Destruction

IHOP has produced quite a legacy. Many couples are no longer together. Many. So many. Many children who were raised going there want nothing to do with Jesus or His Church.There is a veritable mine field of destruction, in Kansas City, of disaffected and discouraged youth being vomited out of IHOP.

And then there are those who have remained, fewer in number, whose marriages are still intact and whose children are still believers. Sadly, another family who appeared so stable and unscathed, has truly become the Mother of All IHOP Casualties.

“Solomon”

I am unable to go in to much detail as I wish to protect their identities. They stand out as parents having so earnestly and deliberately taken on the role of teaching and training their children with the extreme diligence. They stand out in such a way that it would make your head spin. One of the children, Solomon had an extraordinary conversion a few years back, which caught the attention of all his family members. As a result, the entire family seemed to really dig in and become super participants ‐ in the prayer room ‐ and in various internships. In Solomon’s zeal to walk in a manner worthy of the Lord, he embraced all things IHOP, including a fasting lifestyle. After a prolonged period of fasting, Solomon’s parents intervened in order to restore his physical health (he lost 40 lbs.) More sadly is that Solomon is now experiencing some sort of psychosis, even refusing to eat.

Things have gone downhill for Solomon in a most unexpected and alarming manner leaving him out of touch with reality. In their desire to help him, his parents have not yet considered his experience at IHOP as having contributed to his demise. I lay it directly at the feet of IHOP. But that’s just me.

There are many other tragedies associated with this movement. I’m sure I can think of more, but time prevents me from going on. Clearly, this is bad fruit ‐ the worst kind. Where is the proclamation of the gospel in all of their wrangling? It isn’t proclaimed. I don’t know if it’s even alluded to anymore.

So, everyone out there, pray for Solomon, and all the other Solomon’s who have rejected their parents, rejected the Bible as the final authority, and given themselves over to a deceiving spirit masquerading as an angel of light. This is truly overwhelming, but not too great for our saving Savior to step in and fix. Thank you, Jesus, for knowing the end from the beginning and being an ever present help in time of trouble.

See also:
IHOP - The Perils of Passion
Red Flags over IHOP - Devotion or Deception?
Revisionism and The Blueprint Prophecy
Tags: Glory, Grace Covenant Church Harrisonburg, gcch.org,JMU-HOP, jmuhop, theprayerfurnace, Fredericksburg Prayer Furnace, 24-7 Virginia, Chi Alpha, IHOP, David Bradshaw, Randy Martinez, Solemn Assembly, Prayer Room, Campus Strike Force

Red Flags over IHOP - Devotion or Deception?

2011-02-08T08:45:00.012-05:00

Ariel, on the Gospel Masquerade Blog posted the following article about a year ago. I felt like it needed some more exposure, and she was kind enough to grant me permission to repost. There is much I have said about the doctrine and foundations of IHOP, but there is nothing like first-hand reports. And this report echoes what I have been hearing elsewhere.

Recently I have become aware of a systemic problem cropping up at IHOP- and that is the problem of complete meltdowns among interns and former interns. Demonic or nutritional, it matters little. People in this great end-times forerunner movement are having their lives devastated. Pray for those caught up in this, that God would have mercy on them, and that their eyes would be opened to the deception in the 24/7 prayer movement.

There were many, many experiences that made me do a double take and say “what?” while I was at IHOP but that internal questioning was quickly explained away or rebuked by internship leaders. Once I began to deviate from IHOP’s teachings and study scripture on my own for answers to the internal conflicts I wrestled with, I began questioning the pseudo reality I had been conditioned to embrace. Suddenly I saw the isolated red flag incidences as a seamless pattern of error and the veil of deception fell. I stopped rationalizing and justifying. Enough was enough and I was done and wanted out.

There are much more personal experiences than I can put into one single blog post, but here are a few I still recall pretty strongly.

Mandatory fasts which made me very physically ill. They would never admit to having “mandatory” fasts but when you don’t have any food available, close down the kitchen, give your cook the day off and don’t allow interns to hold jobs (so that they have money to go buy food if they aren’t participating in the fast) then that is called mandatory.

Being practically held hostage in the prayer room and told that it was required that I be there and I was not allowed to leave even though I did not feel well and wanted to go back to my apartment. I was told I needed to stay in the prayer room to be part of the “corporate anointing” and that I shouldn’t leave. It was one of my “required” prayer room sets as an intern so I spent the remainder of that 2-hour set in one of the side prayer rooms in the back sobbing on the floor because I wanted to leave so badly and our internship leaders were standing by the door. You might ask “why didn’t you just force your way out and leave anyway?” When you are part of cult where free, independent thinking is not condoned when you don’t comply with what is expected of you, very often guilt, manipulation and penalties are instated for those who resist. Interns who didn’t follow “the rules” of the internship were penalized through loss of privileges (such as loss of your day off, having to do extra work/manual labor, etc.)

The grip of control and micro-management increasing: greater demands and restrictions on interns (such as increased pressure to fast more to attain a higher pinnacle of spirituality) being told where we had to sit when in the prayer room, taught a model for how to pray, how to dance, sing, etc. Any form of worship outside of this model was not considered to be acceptable. It had to fit IHOP’s style and method to be admissible.

Mandatory journaling assignments which we had to do weekly and then we had to turn in our journals to be read by internship leaders.

Seeing how controlled the prayer room was. Rather than having freedom to express my heart to the Lord, I was put in a box and told how I had to do everything IHOP’s way. I had reading and writing assignments whenever I was in the prayer room.

There was no alone time ever to really think, reason, test, question or process anything. We were run ragged from sun up to late into the night which always left me exhausted, depleted and burnt out.

Once when I got sick, my mother came to pick me up and internship leaders resisted letting me leave with her (even though she lived in town). My internship ‘com leader’ (short for community leader) objected and still impressed upon me the importance of going to the prayer room even though I was too sick to get off the couch. My mother said “she is my daughter and I’m taking her home and taking care of her. Period.”

The more leadership responsibility I was given as an intern, the more I got peeks into the “inside”. I saw the outer fringes of the internal operations of how IHOP functioned. I was on an IHOP dance team and sang as a chorus leader on a few worship teams. To dance, I had to follow a specific model that IHOP required. To sing, I had to attend the briefing/de-briefing meetings before and after each worship set where I saw first-hand how carefully controlled that the seemingly “spontaneous” aspects of worship were carefully calculated and often planned ahead of time.

Another intern got deathly ill and it wasn’t until she ended up being hospitalized that internship leaders took seriously the fact she was sick. They accused her of faking an illness to get out of attending IHOP classes and time in the prayer room. This was told to me directly by that intern.

If I wanted to go anywhere off IHOP property (even to go see my family who lived in town) I had to notify internship leaders of my whereabouts at all times. I had no autonomy or freedom as an individual. Some leaders who were 19 (but were former interns which gave them elite status) were telling me where to be, what to do and when I was expected to be home. I had to answer to them for everything. I was in my early 20′s and had lived on my own before so the feeling of suffocation and having no personal rights to space, privacy, independent thought, etc. was overwhelming.

There is much more but I think that’s a sufficient start to at least give you an idea of some of what was happening when I was at IHOP. It wasn’t until after I left that I began to see far more than I had been able to see when I was still involved. The casual observer on the periphery won’t necessarily see the reality of all that is happening there because they are seeing the veil that IHOP has built to carefully cloak the truth of a lot of what really happens.

After I left, I realized how worn out and exhausted I was in every way imaginable. I spent days and weeks sleeping and physically healing from the trauma of the experiences I had just come out of and to let my body heal from the fasting and sleep deprivation. It took a long time for me to really start healing emotionally and spiritually and to begin putting pieces together. Recovering from mental and spiritual abuse like that is a hard road and a difficult place to come out from. I did months of research after I left IHOP and the immediate dust had settled. I wanted to see the roots of the giant beanstalk that had sprouted up and choked the life out of everything in me. I started going back as far into the history of IHOP as I could. As interns we were required to listen to 18 hours of audio CDs recapping all of the history of IHOP and the “prophesies” that led to it’s starting. I started researching on the internet about the names of the so called prophets of this movement and what they had come out of. That led me to picking apart a very carefully woven web of key players that all were connected to this massive organization.

I shared with one parent who e-mailed me about her own child at IHOP the importance of praying that the L-rd will open their eyes not only to see, but to recognize and identify the red flags of IHOP. The thing is, they are probably already seeing them, but rationalizing and excusing them away as isolated events rather than viewing them as a destructive pattern. I pray that the Father will show those there who are truly seeking him the pattern of red flags…making them so obvious they can no longer ignore them.

My hope is that the young people there who are much like I was will begin to question what they see and compare it with what the scripture actually says…not how Mike Bickle twists and teaches it…and that they have the courage to identify it and reject it. Those who oppose IHOP and speak out typically experience some kind of consequences or backlash. People are a commodity there. They are traded. When wounded ones leave, IHOP leadership doesn’t sweat over it…new and unsuspecting people who are ignorant of their dangerous devices but are hungry for emotionally-driven experiences and spiritual highs will come back in the same door the others left. It’s a revolving door of deception.

The deceptions of IHOP are treacherous and very real. Did G-d use that place in my life and work together for my good the devastation I experienced? Absolutely. But that is a testimony to the goodness of our G-d…not a stamp of approval on a place. Remember he spoke through a donkey and a burning bush. That doesn’t mean we should glorify donkeys and start worshiping bushes.

I’ve been asked many times how my eyes were opened to see what was happening at IHOP and how I got out, etc. I’ve thought about that many times and the simplest answer I can give is that I knew who my source was. G-d was my source of instruction, teaching, counsel, truth, etc. It was His voice I was seeking to hear and His approval I desired. IHOP wasn’t my source. So when the things I heard from the L-rd through prayer and studying His word were in conflict with the things I was being taught in IHOP it made the decision to leave an easier one. It was traumatic and painful and I’m not going to minimize that. But it was the price of protecting truth and I knew that staying would have compromised what I knew was right and since my desire is to delight the heart of my Father, once He removed the scales, I was out.

My desire is to see people set free to live lives of healing and wholeness…walking in genuine love and pursuing truth. My prayer is that the things you read on this blog inspire you to that end.

Grace and peace to you.

See also:

IHOP - The Perils of Passion
Red Flags over IHOP - Devotion or Deception?
The Mother of all IHOP Caualties
Revisionism and The Blueprint Prophecy
Tags: Glory, Grace Covenant Church Harrisonburg, gcch.org,JMU-HOP, jmuhop, theprayerfurnace, Fredericksburg Prayer Furnace, 24-7 Virginia, Chi Alpha, IHOP, David Bradshaw, Randy Martinez, Solemn Assembly, Prayer Room, Campus Strike Force

A Season of Sizzling Worldwide Miracles!!!

2011-01-30T14:48:00.019-05:00

Approximately 90 days from now, (June, July, and August) there will be a supernatural release from Heaven. It will be a 90-day "rush" of Holy Spirit power similar to the original Day of Pentecost. This "mighty, RUSHING wind" will release upon the worldwide church a sizzling 90-day period of...

•Unprecedented Worldwide Healings!

•Unprecedented Worldwide Signs!

•Unprecedented Worldwide Wonders!

•Miracles, Miracles, and More Miracles!

But even greater than this outpouring of healings, signs, and wonders will be an unprecedented worldwide release of miracles--90 days of genuine miracles of all kinds, miracles of all shapes, and miracles of all sizes. [This summer] will be a season of sizzling worldwide miracles that are unprecedented, unparalleled, and unmatched:

•Unprecedented Worldwide Miracles are Coming!

•Unparalleled Worldwide Miracles are Coming!

•Unmatched Worldwide Miracles are Coming!

The Lord would say, "There will be an unprecedented worldwide release of miracles. All nations shall know that I am God!"

OK, I'm setting you up. This is not coming this summer, but supposedly happened in the Summer of 2006. This was an actual "prophetic word" from Elijahlist.com. And very typical of words from the so-called apostolic/prophetic movement today.

Did it happen? No.

Let's look at another "prophetic word."

Verily thus saith the Lord: It is wisdom in my servant David W. Patten, that he settle up all his business as soon as he possibly can, and make a disposition of his merchandise, that he may perform a mission unto me next spring, in company with others, even twelve including himself, to testify of my name and bear glad tidings unto all the world.

Well, that was pretty specific. And also testable. This word was recorded in Joseph Smith's "Doctrine and Covenants" (D&C 114:1).

Did it happen? No.

In fact, Patten died at the Battle of Crooked River in the Fall of that Year. So he did not go on his "mission" in the next spring.

The typical Mormon excuses offered are:

•That he did his "mission" in the spirit world, following his death. But that is not what the passage states.

•Patten was disobedient to the Lord in the battle, that he turned and ran (he didn't). Patten was shot in the chest as he was chasing the enemy. He died in good standing with the Mormon Church.

Those who deal with Mormon apolgetics will always stress the test of a prophet given in Deuteronomy 13. See also Deuteronomy 18:20-22. It's simple really- a true prophet is one who prophesies truth.

Ezekial 13 speaks on the same subject:

Therefore, thus says the Lord GOD, "Because you have spoken falsehood and seen a lie, therefore behold, I am against you," declares the Lord GOD. "So My hand will be against the prophets who see false visions and utter lying divinations..."

Just as the Mormons offer lame excuses for beloved prophet Joseph Smith, so too do those in the prophetic/apostolic movement.

"Bob Jones was told that the general level of prophetic revelation in the church was about 65% accurate at this time. Some are only about 10% accurate, a very few of the most mature prophets are approaching 85% to 95% accuracy. Prophecy is increasing in purity, but there is a still a long way to go for those who walk in this ministry. This is actually grace for the church now, because 100% accuracy in this ministry would bring a level of accountability to the church which she is too immature to bear at this time."

-Rick Joyner

According to Jones, God told him that we shouldn't worry about inaccurate prophesies, for God told him that prophets are like guns and prophecies are like bullets and inaccurate prophecies are like blanks. And he also says that God told him, "I'm loading the guns, I'm putting the blanks in!" In Jones' world, God says "You can't handle the truth."

To further illustrate the fairy-tale-that-is-Mormonism one might cite the failed temple prophecy.

"A revelation of Jesus Christ unto his servant Joseph Smith, Jun., and six elders, as they united their hearts and lifted their voices on high. Yea, the word of the Lord concerning his church, established in the last days for the restoration of his people, as he has spoken by the mouth of his prophets, and for the gathering of his saints to stand upon Mount Zion, which shall be the city of New Jerusalem. Which city shall be built, beginning at the temple lot, which is appointed by the finger of the Lord, in the western boundaries of the State of Missouri, and dedicated by the hand of Joseph Smith, Jun., and others with whom the Lord was well pleased. Verily this is the word of the Lord, that the city New Jerusalem shall be built by the gathering of the saints, beginning at this place, even the place of the temple, which temple shall be reared in this generation. For verily this generation shall not all pass away until an house shall be built unto the Lord, and a cloud shall rest upon it, which cloud shall be even the glory of the Lord, which shall fill the house."

-Doctrine and Covenants 84:1-5

To be clear, there is NO TEMPLE at the Missouri temple lot, not has there ever been one. And many generations have passed. Seem's pretty conclusive, doesn't it?

Do we give the prophetic/apostolic movement a free pass while condemning Joseph Smith to Hell?

Here's another Smith prophesy:

"The coming of the Lord, which was nigh - even fifty-six years should wind up
the scene."
-Joseph Smith, Jr., in History of the Church, vl. 2, p. 182. (1835)

Did it happen? No.

Ok, back to the original "word" in this article. There may have been some "signs and wonders" back in 2006, but was the "summer of 2006...a season of sizzling worldwide miracles that are unprecedented, unparalleled, and unmatched?"

To be clear, this did not happen. Seem's pretty conclusive, doesn't it?

Steve Shultz, the editor of the Elijah List, thinks that we simply need the so-called "Issachar anointing."

"If one has this Issachar anointing, it makes for a very accurate prophet, especially as it relates to timing. Timing is the hardest thing for most prophets and prophetic people to get right."
-Steve Shultz

Perhaps if people speaking on behalf of God would only speak when God has spoken, they would get it right (Ezekial 13). Or better yet, speak something that God has already said, but still needs to be said.

Here, I'll say something "prophetic"; it involves "timing," and - I've got it "right."

It is time for the so-called prophets of God to stop speaking from thier own imaginations. It is time to stop speaking pleasing words to itching ears. Your very soul depends on it. This is what the Sovereign LORD says: Because of your false words and lying visions, I am against you, declares the Sovereign LORD.

I'll offer no excuses. Test this word and see if it is true.

My hope is that, some day, we can hold Christians to the same prophetic standards that we would like to hold Mormons to. To be fair, if I am going to apply the perjorative term "fairy-tale" to Mormonism, I must apply it to those in the Aplostolic/Prophetic who prophesy from thier own imaginations. In the meantime, the Mormons have great allies in Steve Shultz, Rick Joyner and Bob Jones. Perhaps they too should pray for the "Issachar anointing."

Who Can Ascend Into Heaven? At Will?

2011-01-19T11:01:00.021-05:00

Patricia King's Glory School returns to The Hub - Harrisonburg starting January 2011.
Recently Charisma Magazine published an article in its "Prophetic Insight" column which addressed the numerous bad doctrines creeping into the church as a result of bible illiteracy amongst Christians. I know nothing of the author, Dennis Cramer, but in this article he is spot on.

In this essay he addresses the current teachings, such as those encountered in Patricia King's so-called "Glory School," where people are taught to have "supernatural, sovereign experiences at will." This includes (at will) third-heaven visitations, which is the gist of the "Glory School" teaching. Back to Cramer:

When a believer unwisely exercises his (soulish) human will, outside of or in conflict with the sovereign will of God (anything contrary to the written Word of God, the Bible), he is producing a seemingly supernatural (source unclear) experience from his own will, or “at will.” This is the meaning of “at will.” It is self-will, and self-will can be sinful and lead to all kinds of spiritual deception and questionable practices.

These deceptions can take place ONLY because Christians are NOT opening their bibles and reading it for themselves.

One of these deceptions involves the teaching that we can go to the "third heaven" (mentioned once in the scriptures) on our own instigation - "at will." Yes, scriptures tell us of a few noteworthy events that suggest that a person could be caught up into the heavenlies for a specific sovereign purpose. Nowhere it is implied that this is an everyday event that we can conjure up at will.

"Who is allowed to ascend the mountain of the Lord?
Who may go up to his holy dwelling place?" Psalm 24:3

For instance, here (at 00:46), Patricia King rips Psalm 24 totally out of both context and plain meaning. By no stretch of the imagination is Psalm 24 promoting visits to heaven by saints now alive on the earth. In its plainest meaning it refers to Zion or Jerusalem. Yet King uses this scripture to promote her "Glory School" agenda.

Notably absent from her scripture references is this appropriate one from Isaiah 14:

"For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High."

Friends, this is dangerous stuff. Things did not work out too well for the being quoted above in Isaiah 14. Be careful of the company you keep. Dennis Cramer says "There is now widespread acceptance of 'marginal to heretical' doctrines. Just 25 years ago individuals would have been thrown out of the church if caught teaching these heresies." Rest assured, God will bring correction, for He is coming for a Bride without "spot or wrinkle."

As with any deviant teaching, the Glory School lessons contain much truth. But also much error.

Read Cramer's article.

Tags: Laurinda Peters Theophostic Prayer Glory Grace Covenant Church Harrisonburg gcch.org Melinda Fish The Hub Virginia Ric Peters thehubharrisonburg.org Shenandoah Paint Neff Avenue Soaking Prayer JMU Chi Alpha

Dial-a-Prophet

2011-01-17T12:07:00.011-05:00

Dr. Jeremy Lopez hosts a website called the Identity Network which is into all that so-called Apostolic and Prophetic stuff. And he keeps good company; here's a listing of some of the folks endorsing his ministry:

Patricia King
James Goll
Julie Meyer (IHOP)
Randy Clark
Brian Lake
David Tomberlin
Shawn Bolz
John Crowder
Theresa Phillips

Anyhow, it seems that times are tough out on the old prophetic circuit, so Lopez is trying a new (old) marketing method. link

NEED PROPHETIC CONSULTING?

Do you need some spiritual advice from a prophetic minister?

Do you feel like there are some missing pieces of the puzzle in your life?

If that's you, let one of our staff members set up a time for you to have a PERSONAL session with Dr.Jeremy Lopez. We will contact you by phone and set up time between the two of you for a 30 minute session. Dr. Jeremy Lopez will pray with you and give you the word of the Lord and also sound counsel from the Lord.

Get your credit card ready, because

A donation of $200.00 is requested for prophetic consulting for a 30 minute session. Please click on the PayPal button below. Then EMAIL US your phone number and we can give you a call to set up a good time for your prophetic consulting session with Dr Jeremy Lopez.

Webster's 1828 has an interesting commentary on this practice:

SIM'ONY, n. [from Simon Magus, who wished to purchase the power of
conferring the Holy Spirit. Act 8.] The crime of buying or selling
ecclesiastical preferment; or the corrupt presentation of any one to an
ecclesiastical benefice of money or reward. By Stat. 31 Elizabeth, c. 6. severe
penalties are enacted against this crime.

If red flags are not yet waving, here's a few quotes from Lopez's website:

"He believes this is the hour for the sons of God to arise. This ministry desires to see every believer awake to their destiny. Dr. Jeremy believes it is time to move in God consciousness and walk in His divine nature."

and this from his bio video

"his desire, through prophetic wisdom is that we awaken to the fullness of our divine consciousness."

Manifested Sons of God or New Age, either way this is strange fire.

So what do you think? Is selling prophecies an acceptable practice? Why or why not? Please cite chapter and verse and let us reason together.

Spiritual Drunkenness, Redux

2010-12-28T10:42:00.008-05:00

Having seen videotape examples and attended conferences of people who are supposedly “drunk in the spirit”; staggering around, struggling to talk (or preach), talking with slurred speech, and falling down, as well as behavior that is unseemly or immodest, I am totally convinced that this is not God’s Spirit at work. This kind of behavior is identical to the type of behavior exhibited by literal drunks – drunk on alcohol. There is absolutely no reason to infer from the book of Acts (Chapter 2) that the disciples of our Lord were exhibiting even one of these “symptoms” of drunkenness. If you read Acts, chapter 2 you realize that what the populace was responding to was the supernatural sign that was in evidence – they were speaking in tongues.

Unable to explain this sign in any other way, some mocked and accused them of being drunk. That this charge was spurious and not even considered by the majority can be seen in the fact that 3,000 listened and responded to Peter’s (coherent) presentation of the gospel, repented of their sins, and were added to the Church that day.

There is a “party spirit” loose in the Church today. Thousands are dying and slipping into an eternity in hell every day. Occultism and New Age beliefs, not to mention secular humanism and the myriad of new cults arising daily are leading millions down the wide road that leads to destruction. Yet I’m supposed to believe that God would have me sit back, relax, and enjoy some “Holy Ghost drinking party”?

This comment by "Ester" on The Gospel Masquerade Blog says it all. The "party spirit" continues today, years after the Toronto "the Party is Now" slogan falls into antiquity.

"In Jesus Name, the Bar is Open." -Patricia King

I could show you much worse (behaviourally speaking) videos than the one above, but I thought that Patty King would present the doctrine (recieved through a "download") better than just showing you slurring preachers plastered to the floor. My favorite, of course, is sweet Heidi Baker, fast forward to timestamp 06:40 see also 14:43.

Today we not only have "apostles" sloshing around in "The Wine Barrel" (another TACF catchphrase, but we now have "progessed" to "Tokin' the Holy Ghost."

Quoting Lee Grady, former editor of Charisma Magazine:

Not long after ecstasy became known as a recreational drug, someone in our movement got the bright idea to promote spiritual ecstasy as a form of legitimate worship. The concept evolved from "spiritual drunkenness" to the current fad in which people gather at church altars and pretend to shoot needles in their arms for a "spiritual high." Some preachers today are encouraging people to "toke the Holy Ghost"-a reference to smoking marijuana.

I hate to be a party pooper, but the Bible warns us to "be of sound judgment and sober spirit" (1 Pet. 4:7). There is plenty of freedom and joy in the Holy Spirit; we don't have to quench it by introducing people to pagan revelry. Christian worship is not about losing control. Those who worship Jesus do it "in spirit and in truth" (John 4:24), and our love for God is not measured by how violently we shake or how many times we fall on the floor.

The issue is worth serious consideration. Besides the recent article on "tokin' the Baby Jesus" I would suggest and article written a year ago titled "Drunken Streams - Defiled Waters."

Is Patricia King Qualified to Teach the "Glory School?"

2010-12-17T13:26:00.024-05:00

Recently I saw this announcement for a local showing of Patricia King's "Glory School."

"There is a wave of God coming that will change the spiritual and cultural landscape and fill our valley with the knowledge of the Glory of the Lord. Glory School is about us posturing ourselves to not only be a part of this move, but to be part of the company of 'Glory Carriers' that BRINGS IT."

Wanting to know more about this (who wouldn't want to be a "glory carrier"?), I consulted King's website and found this:

"Did you know that you can freely access the throne of grace, acquaint yourself with the glorious supernatural phenomenon in the Kingdom, encounter the Lord and His angelic majesties, and much more? The Glory School is a power-packed, informative school that offers you in-depth Bible teaching and training and introduces you into Holy Spirit led Kingdom encounters. Come and soar with us into realms of heavenly glory."

That's a pretty tall order, so I thought today I would consider why Patricia King is qualified to teach the "Glory School."

She Has Experienced Angel Orbs

Now, I must admit that I have never heard of such a thing. Most of my reading is confined to the Bible and I am not too familiar with angel orbs, which seem to be more prevalent in the new-age movement. However, according to King, they do exist. Quoting King:

“Two members of our team and I had just finished a prayer session to prepare for our evening meeting at Tim and Cindy McGill’s Four Square Church. As we were praising the Father for the downloads we had received, we heard that there was still more for us. That’s when we noticed the presence of angelic orbs over our heads. How glorious! God is so good!”

“We began to praise and worship Him for this Heavenly Presence. All of a sudden, one of our team (Shirley Ross), heard from the Lord that we were to clap our hands together over our heads where the orbs were. When we did, it was as if the orbs burst open and showered us in Heavenly Glory! Different colored orbs appeared and filled the room over our heads. We clapped and clapped and clapped. Some of the orbs rained down a thick, sweet oil. Others left us feeling tingly and effervescent. The Joy of the Lord was everywhere as we were refreshed, renewed and empowered. These “exploding” orbs covered us in an anointing of His Presence and also helped to deeply seat the inspiration and revelation we had received from Him throughout that day. Thank you Father! ”

She Has Encountered "the Blue Flame"

I'll let King tell us all about this, as again, I am not too familiar with this outside of its new-age connections:

"The blue flame is the hottest and most intense part of a fire, and the color blue is often a prophetic symbol of divine revelation, God’s love, and an open Heaven." "Recently while teaching at Glory School in Dudley, England, with Trevor and Sharon Baker, I had a spiritual encounter regarding the Blue Flame of the Lord. In this encounter, I could feel myself soaring like an eagle, looking upward into the sun while in flight. My eyes were fixed on the sun. Eagles (often a Biblical symbol of the prophetic) in thenatural have an extra membrane over their eyes that other birds do not have. This allows them to look directly into the sun without damage to their vision. As I gazed into the sun, I could feel myself being drawn towards its center, and that is when I saw it–the Blue Flame. It was so beautiful. I could feel its strength that is to be feared and respected, and also I felt its passion."

I've noted that the "Blue Flame" is a symbol incorporated into her ministry's logo.

She Can Roar Like a Lion

Roaring is somewhat passé these days, but it was big in the nineties. I'll let King tell you about it:

"I remember the first time I roared in 1995. I had heard about the roarings and I was troubled by it. Charlie Robinson was over at our place as he had just returned with our team from a cross Canada tour. He shared that he had “roared” when he was in Toronto. I was concerned but decided to hear him share. He showed me scriptures and shared testimony. Suddenly, I received an urge to get down on all fours…..it was not a sovereign power that came on me just a stirring in my spirit. I resisted it at first and then I felt I should obey the “nudge”…as soon as I got down on all fours the power of the Spirit came on me and oh my goodness…things really moved then with full roarings and everything. I had to step into it first by faith though…following through on the simple, quiet, nudging of the Holy Spirit. Since that time, I have been in prayer meetings and the Holy Spirit has led me to move into groanings and roarings. I did not feel naturally inclined but moved into it by
obedience….after the choice to obey then we experienced great anointing."

Here King illustrates one of the key principals of her Glory School- to have the type of experiences she talks about you do not wait for a sovereign move (e.g. Paul on the Damascus Road) but rather "step into it first by faith."

She Has met the Angel named "Purity"

Like Todd Bentley, King has experienced angelic visitations from "named" angels. This, of course, would be requisite if you were going to teach a course such as the "Glory School." Weakening her case, it turns out the angel is really a bird. here's King:

"In December 2005, our producer Shirley Ross was visited by an angel called “Purity”. Purity is a white eagle with piercing fiery eyes and yet soft, gentle, and dove-like in nature. Shirley also saw a golden ring that Purity carried. It was a ring of power and protection and it was placed around individuals and groups who chose the virtue of purity. I was present during the visitation and also felt the presence of Purity at that time although I did not see it…The angel Purity returned the next day and the day after. I saw the vision of this being during the two days and also felt the softness of its breast feathers on one occasion."

She Goes Into Trances

The "Glory Carriers" not only can prophesy at will, they can experience any of the sundry levels of "higher revelation" at will. Key to this is entering into a trance. Quoting King:

"I was in what is called a trance vision. In this type of vision, you are in a dream-like state yet remain awake and are oftentimes aware of your natural surroundings. In other words, you are 'inside' the vision."

King goes on to say how she experienced a form of spirit travel while in this particular trance. She visited a friend in a distant Hospital.

"In my body I was on the main street in Mesa, Arizona; however, in my spirit, I sensed that I was inside the tangible, eternal dimension of the rich realities that Paul was writing about in Ephesians."

"I found myself within the vision, hovering over Donna in a hospital bed."

Her Associate Jason Westerfield is an Expert on "Transporting in the Spirit."

Here is Patricia King and Jason Westerfield explaining what this is all about. I need to find the original source video as this one has a running commentary in it. Enjoy!

Another King video features two "Glory School" students talking about driving down the interstate after a class, and being transported to another highway where they were cut off by a "Covenant Transport" truck. Aside from a little excitement, the transport seemed to have no vaild kingdom purpose.

She Trains Her Students in Raising the Dead

Her students "take the risk, and they do so with sensitivity." What better way to learn how to raise the dead than to practice at a funeral home?

She sees Third-Heaven Experiences as an Ordinary Occurrence

When asked if she taught that all believers can go to the third heaven, king's response was "Yes. The Bible says so. It is our position in Christ. He desires us to have this heavenly perspective."

Here Patricia introduces her friends "Seer-Prophet" Bob Jones and (her words) "another favorite of mine" Todd Bentley. Watch Patty, Bobby and Todd as they talk about their experiences visiting heaven. A significant amount of time is spent in the "Glory School" lessons teaching you how you can experience this is your life - at will.

Note that Bob Jones visits the "third-heaven" several times a week.

She Promotes Levitation as a Sign and Wonder.

John Crowder is not the only one promoting levitation as a legitimate spiritual experince that we should seek after. Here's King:

"I saw visions of the church moving in true supernatural acts. One specific and very vivid open trance vision in February 1995 revealed a corporate group of Christians rising up off the ground during a worship encounter. In the same vision, I also saw Christians being transported in the spirit from one geographical location to another. I saw them soaring in the spirit over cities and nations making decrees of the Word of God in full authority. The voice of the Lord spoke clearly during this encounter saying, “Many of My own people will say these experiences are empowered by occult power but what you see is not fueled by a false source. It is My power being displayed. Many signs and wonders will occur.”

She Has Seen The "Great Outpouring of Gold."

Patricia King tells us that "God likes gold." And so King is well versed in the experiences of Gold Dust, Gemstones, feathers and oil. Quoting King:

"In the mid 1990s we had a great outpouring of the gold in our meetings when Todd Bentley was ministering with us. We felt God was saying that He was opening the heavens and the church would begin to see manifestations of heaven in the earth to confirm the answer to our prayer that we have been praying for 2,000 years: "Your Kingdom come, Your will be done, On earth as it is in heaven.” To others, it was a sign of the transference of wealth in their lives. And to others the Lord spoke to them out of the latter glory of the house being greater than the former (Haggai 1,2)."

"With the manifestation of the gold dust or diamond glitter or feathers or oil, you too will receive the communication of the Lord when you draw close. There are many things that the Lord might want to speak to you in regards to these manifestations. God will unfold His heart as you seek Him. We know that He likes gold."

Qualified or Not?

According to one Glory School participant that I know personally:

"The big picture of the Glory School is a teaching that visual/sensory perceptions of heaven are available on demand. The overwhelming majority of participants seem to have accepted the teaching and seem to have had self-initiated visions of what they suppose to be heaven." Moreover, "Her students consistently report that her training works: they're able to enjoy their own visions of heaven before the conclusion of the school."

Perhaps King should pull in John Crowder as an adjunct professor, but I would say if the purpose of the school is to teach 21st century mysticism and what we used to call "charismatic excess," she is more than qualified to teach it alone.

This, of course, begs the question: "Should Christians participate in such activities which are theologically suspect?" Not to worry. In 2003, Patricia King was questioned/challenged by a few leaders in the Body regarding her Glory School teaching and in particular the aspects of Third Heaven, terminology, and experience. King submitted her Glory School teachings (which she claims were dictated to her) to an "intensive theological audit" by Dr. Alistair Petrie (a proponent of “spiritual mapping”). And according to King, the school passed theological muster.

Will all due respect to Dr. Petrie, the panel of one seemed to be loaded. Petrie, associated with Fuller Seminary and C. Peter Wagner, fails to address the claim of divine inspiration, which strikes at the heart of the authority of the scriptures.

And that is just one theological objection of dozens.

For further consideration- David Wilkerson speaks out (circa 2000).

Part 3. - The Third-Wave Incarnation of the Manifest Sons of God Heresy in the 21st Century Charismatic Church.

2010-12-16T11:54:00.014-05:00

Note: this is Part 2 of a 3-part series. Read Part 1 here.Read Part 2 here

Manifestations

The third-wave church often teaches and practices that reactions (or "manifestations") are most often God-initiated and are not to be controlled. A more orthodox belief held by mainline Charismatics and Pentecostals is that spiritual actions like tongues, prophecies, even shouts-of-joy or cries-of-intercession are under the control of the person. If a prophetic tongue can be stopped in a service, and given later, likewise other spiritual actions, such as screaming out, can yield to control in a service where everything needs to be "decent and in order".

It must be understood that the spiritualized emphasis on “manifestations” and their uncontrollability has a direct tie to the teachings and practices of the Vineyard Movement and the related Toronto (Vineyard) Blessing. Toronto is considered by many a case study in manifestations taken to excess.(30)

What is pertinent to the discussion was the frequency in which I had talked to people who refuse to come forward for ministry. They are (rightly) afraid of what people might do to them. I have heard from several who have stated that they have emotionally “checked out” of the charismatic services. My heart goes out this these people, and they are a significant number. (31)

In my time since leaving the third-wave church, the most notable thing about going to church is the new-found ability to be relaxed while in a service. No longer do I need to worry about what stupid, or even occultic thing is going to happen next. Good worship, Good teaching, no weird things. Two or three prophecies may be given, but no more. Sunday mornings have become a tremendous time of refreshing.

Contrast that with this expectation from Morningstar’s Steve Thompson:

“prophetic ministry is weird. There is good weird and bad weird, and it is the good weird but it is weird!” (32)

Profanity

Bill Randles, in his book “Beware the New Prophets” makes the point that “the Bible is being downgraded, profanity is coming into the churches and that Christians (Charismatic and evangelical) have stopped using their God-given ability to think.”

Recently, while at a third-wave church, I saw a film clip from the movie “Seabiscuit” used during a sermon in which a jockey cried out “God D*mn it!” Rather odd for a church that strives for God’s habitation, don’t you think? No, God is not squeamish about such things. He is emphatically against such things. (33)

More perverse was a “prophetic” word once given at a leader’s retreat and later repeated verbatim at a ministry training meeting while youth were present. This word, "You can't do a D*mn Thing", was the reportedly the pinnacle of the retreat. Disturbingly, the word energized and excited those to whom it was given. The word was never publicly judged as not being from the Lord, although an apology for repeating it to the youth was made after several months. When leaders of that group were asked if perhaps the "meaning" of the word was correct while the language was not the exact word of the Lord, they emphatically stated that it was a valid prophetic word in its precise language. We disagree

I have not uncovered the doctrinal foundation for the use of profanity within the Manifest Sons movement but the practice seems to be widespread and acceptable. Perhaps it has a close ties with the Toronto practice of “spiritual drunkenness” (34), or so it would seem.

Swordplay

One of the issues we became aware of at the time of our departure from the “third-wave” church was the issue of “Swordplay.” This often-secret practice of spiritualized knighting cropped up in third-wave churches worldwide. The practice frequently involves Scottish Claymore swords as in the legends of Arthur and his sorcerer Merlin. These swords may now been seen on the platforms of many churches such as Morningstar as if they were some sort of religious relic.

Typically the knighting ceremonies involves elite participants sitting in a circle. A leader, stands in the middle of the circle. One at a time, participants slowly move into the center of the circle and solemnly kneel while the leader knights them, tapping them with the sword. This has occurred at third-wave churches in many places and was documented to have occurred at Morningstar, as reported in Charisma Magazine (April 2001):

Joyner's connection to the Knights of Malta has troubled some in the prophetic movement who can't reconcile their Christian faith with membership in a group they consider secretive or elitist. "I have a concern about it. It's a secret society," says one former Morning Star staff member who left in 1999 and requested anonymity when interviewed.

A student of military history, Joyner finds rich Christian symbolism in the Knights of Malta: Brave warriors, armed knights defending the Holy Land--and plenty of swords. On occasion he has given decorative medieval swords to his closest friends. The weapons--which are mentioned often in his books--symbolize the power of the prophetic Word of God.

But the imagery has troubled some of his supporters. Another close ministry associate who requested anonymity said he raised loud objections to the Knights of Malta when Joyner announced that he had joined the order. "I wouldn't touch that stuff. I absolutely came out strong against it," the man said.

Another former ministry staffer told Charisma that he got concerned when Joyner began urging friends to be knighted in an inner circle. "I never felt a peace about it," the former employee said. "It is an elitist club. People started vying for position so they could be knighted. The ones that were knighted had a special bond with Rick.” (35)

Gary Bergel, the former leader of Intercessors For America, has spoken out against this practice on at least one occasion in which I was present. Bergel makes a rational, compelling argument. Joyner’s response to rational thought, which I believe was spoken concerning Bergel: “I understood this well because of a recent conversation I had with a leader of a prayer ministry based in Washington. I do not think that I have ever talked to anyone who was not more deceived by extreme reasoning that leads to wrong conclusions.” (36)

End Times Nonsense

There have recently been many “Joseph Company” conferences hosted by Mike Bickle’s church in Kansas City. The Joseph Company is designed to provide a financial base for the end-time church. You can pay thousands of dollars to take their basic course, pay additional monies for additional courses, and if you meet the qualifications (spiritually discerned) you can actually take part- by invitation- in their business incubator program Those qualifications are not unlike those required by your typical multi-level pyramid scheme: “you will have to be skilled in business, have access to capital and a large talent pool, and be a skilled mentor.” (37)

The origins of the Joseph Company concept can probably be traced to a prophecy by Manifest Son Bill Hamon, who prophesied:

“God has released his Holy Spirit to bring His revelations and activation to the end-time Church. This will bring forth the last generation of mortal people, unlimited power, new products and more places dedicated to fulfilling God’s present-truth purposes…delay shall be no longer concerning the final preparation necessary for the kingdoms of this world to become the kingdoms of Christ Jesus and his Church… God is activating the second phase of apostles and prophets and is fully restoring them to their rightful place of power and function…Jesus is maturing and motivating the five-fold ministers to intensify their training, and equipping those who will be the soldiers in God’s end-time army…the Holy Spirit has been commissioned to accelerate his restorational work in the Church..it’s now time to activate the Joseph and Daniel company of apostles (Joseph) and prophets (Daniel) within the business field and political arena…God is preparing an apostolic and prophetic company of Christian businesspeople. They will not only bring the wealth of the wicked into the Church, but will effect the economy in many nations of the world…Jesus chose twelve men from the business world and ordained them apostles. He did not choose men from the religious Rabbinical schools or the Levitical priesthood…the mortal church is in transition and preparation for becoming the immortal Church.” (38)

This clearly states the intent of this program which is Manifest Son to the core. Note the subtle references to a perverted view of the rapture which does not believe that individuals will be caught up, but rather that the church will stay here on earth and be transformed from mortal to immortal. I suppose this will happen in the “twinkling of an eye”.

The Manifest Sons’ doctrine is further elaborated on in the Vision Statement of the Joseph Company (39):

Premise

God will release unprecedented judgments on the earth. Scripture is clear that will release unprecedented judgments on planet earth. His goal is not to destroy, or to cause suffering, but to “remove everything that hinders love” for God.

God will also release unprecedented “Josephs.” At a time when God sent judgment upon the near east, God raised up Joseph to “preserve life.” (Gen 45:5) In this hour God will raise up modern day Josephs through whom He will supernaturally supply food, shelter, and help. In judgment God remembers mercy. (Hab 3:2) In judgment, God will make His Bride the epicenter of supply and sanctuary. In Is. 60:1-8, the emergence of the Bride of Christ (the glorious end-time church) was accompanied by the release of abundant supply.

God has already raised up thousands of “Josephs” for this hour. There are many Christians who are in places of wealth or influence with a deep prophetic heart cry to discern the “times and seasons” and their own role. Though they have been greatly blessed, they know God has a greater purpose for their lives.

Purpose and Vision

Releasing the “Sons of Issachar” (I Chron 12:32) — the “strategic prophets” who
“understand the times and know what Israel should do.” This speaks of strategic
understanding of the purposes of God. Joseph was such a prophet. He interpreted
Pharaoh’s dream and knew exactly what should be done with that knowledge. God’s
new Josephs are also “strategic prophets” who know how to plan and mobilize on a
global scale. Joseph oversaw the transfer of wealth and power according to the
purposes of God.

About Joseph he said: In majesty he is like a firstborn bull; his horns are the horns of a wild ox. With them he will gore the nations, even those at the ends of the earth. (Deut. 33:13,17)

Mercy deeds to the nations.

During Joseph’s famine, perhaps millions of people were delivered from starvation. God’s desire in judgment is to also offer mercy. Modern day Joseph will lead many “miracles of compassion” which God will orchestrate to “preserve life.” (Gen 45:5)

Impacting world leaders.

Pharaoh was greatly impacted by Joseph’s wisdom and leadership. Joseph said God “has made me a father to Pharaoh” (Gen 45:8).

Redeeming the Marketplace.

Today the marketplace is not understood as an integral part of God’s Kingdom. Just as Joseph took the people of God into Egypt — a type of the world system — modern day Josephs will lead the church into the marketplace, establishing the marketplace as a place of His Presence, a place of spiritual passion, divine purpose, fellowship with God, Kingdom activity, and harvest.

Building “Cities of Habitation.”

God will raise up “cities of refuge”, or “cities of habitation“ (Ps. 107) — cities preserved by God as places of sanctuary, healing, worship, self-government, culture, education, and industry, thriving in dark times, like spiritual and natural oasis’s.

Sounds a lot like the plans made by many of the same people in the time before the “Y2K” non-event, does it not? This statement also brings out the “Cities of Habitation” doctrine espoused by Joyner and others. Joyner has already bought large amounts of property in North Carolina with the help of Amway’s Dexter Yeager. Joyner’s publishing operation (and this large property base) has grown so big that his tax-exempt status was challenged by local government officials.

While “redeeming the marketplace” may sound admirable, the true motive (aside from money, which is always a motive) is to set up a supply chain to operate during the tribulation.

Certainly there is nothing in the Bible that even suggests that God will raise up ones with a so-called “Joseph anointing” in the last days. As to the Glory of Zion spoken of in Isaiah 60, if that has application to the church (and not Israel), it is most likely referring to what will be established during the Millennial reign, seven years after the present-day church has been raptured. By that time, in fact shortly after the Rature, others will be enjoying your “places of wealth”.

How to escape.

Leave. Don’t let tradition bind you- that is what is known as religion. Don’t wait for God to speak a plain word as to where you should go- be willing to leave, destination unknown, in an act of faith. He is able to keep you. He will speak to you, but you may not be able to hear clearly until you have removed yourself from a place of spiritual confusion. Don’t let friends or family bind you – "Anyone who loves his father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves his son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me; and anyone who does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me.” – these are the words of Jesus.
Can the third-wave church be changed? Time and time again, it has been confronted and has refused to respond. God is less concerned about the continuance of the third-wave church than He is about the bondage of her people.

Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

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30 Similar reports were documented at the tail-end of the Welsh Revival.
31 This excludes the equally significant number that have left the Charismatic church altogether.
32 http://www.hispraise.com/MorningStar/SThompson.htm
Thompson also briefly comments on the 7 hidden gospels in this discussion.
33 See Exodus 20:7
34 Bill Randles, Weighed and Found Wanting has an excellent chapter on this subject - see http://www.believersingrace.com/images/WFW1.PDF
Also note the frequent Toronto image of “sticking one’s head in the wine barrel” as on page 20 of Spread The Fire magazine Issue 1, 2004
http://download.ctftoronto.com/files/stf/stf10-1.pdf
35 Cedric Harnon, “God’s Lightning Rod”, Charisma Magazine, April 2001.
36 Morningstar Prophetic Bulletin, June 1999
37 http://www.josephcompany.org/faq.asp
38 Bill Hamon “Apostles, Prophets, and the Coming Moves of God” p. 18-20.
39 http://www.josephcompany.org/vision.asp

Part 2. - The Third-Wave Incarnation of the Manifest Sons of God Heresy in the 21st Century Charismatic Church.

2010-12-01T08:21:00.014-05:00

Note: this is Part 2 of a 3-part series. Read Part 1 here.

What They Do

The following is a distillation of many of the practices of the third-wave church and the relationship of those practices with Manifest Son’s doctrine.

The Senses. Regarding the senses, it is taught that it is acceptable, in fact often desirable, to use ALL the senses when prophesying. According to Mike Bickle, concerning Bob Jones,

“When Bob feels pin pricks in his hand, that just show up, that means witchcraft is in this (place)… The Phrase that Bob uses is his senses turn golden…His five senses are literally inspired by the Holy Spirit… He could tell what was happening in the spirit realm from the five senses. (22)

And Bob Jones himself:

“I was over there with Jim a while ago. My hands turned blue, and then they turned purple. And when that happens, it means you’ve got some incense that’s gone up. You’ve got some intercession that’s gone up that Papa’s saying yes to.” (23)

The book “You May ALL Prophesy” by Steve Thompson, which has been adopted as the training manual for many prophecy classes, has much to say about sense. Thompson’s Morningstar practices include “Spiritual taste”, “Spiritual touch”, “Spiritual hearing”, “Spiritual smell”, and “Spiritual sight”. Most egregious is the practice of “Spiritual sight” where one is taught to pick up cues when meeting someone that might remind you of someone that you already have knowledge of, and applying that knowledge to the instant situation. Arguably, this technique may render bona-fide results; the practice of “reading” people is common among psychics today.

Spiritual Counterfeits

In the third-wave church it is taught that just because a technique is used by “the dark side” does not negate its use by the church. According to the proponents of this position, only “motivation of the heart” is the crucial issue.

It is pertinent to note that Jones is regarded by Bickle and others as a “seer”. More revealing, listen to this encounter as recorded by Rick Joyner when he was in Germany to be knighted into a secret order where Joyner asks Bobby Conner for a “readout”:

"I'm sitting in the lobby with Bobby Conner and a few other people there and this guy comes walking in the lobby of the hotel who was an interesting looking guy. And Reed, who was Paul Cain's assistant, was standing behind me. And he said, 'Hey, there's Newman Peyton.' And this guy was Baron Newman Peyton, who Colonel Byrd had told me was looking for me. I said, 'Reed, do you know that man.' He said, 'Oh, yeah, we met him years ago.' And he came over, walked over to me, and said he had been looking to meet with me. And I stopped him right away. I said, 'Bobby, give me a readout on this guy.' And this guy's going, 'What's a readout?' (Laughter.) And Bobby goes, 'Sir, when you came in I just saw something, I saw that you had just come from the office of a man named Kurt Waldheim . . .' And his eyes got real big 'cause he had just come from his (Kurt Waldheim) office. And then he (Bobby Conner) said, 'I saw you or I saw him opening this briefcase and giving you something out of it.' And Bobby described the briefcase. And his eyes got real big then. He said, 'This is incredible!' He (Baron Peyton) said, 'That is the only briefcase like that in the world. I had it custom made for Kurt Waldheim.' And
it was a weird thing Bobby had described." (24)

A more orthodox belief held by mainline Charismatics and Pentecostals is that many techniques used by carnal prophets, such as "reading people", "flow charts", "prophesying off of others" (2 Chronicles 18) and "fishing expeditions" are totally carnal in both motive and application. The term "getting a reading" on someone has become part of the vocabulary within the prophetic movement today. This is carnal. Accuracy is never the sole determining factor. Revelation must come from God, not from technique or other source.

Here's a man standing up at a Patricia King meeting wearing a camo ball cap. King says "This is a silly question and I don't know where its going, but have you ever hunted ducks." Man says, "a little bit, not much, a little bit." King then prophecies that "the Lord is going to make you like a sharp shooter..." (at 2:13)

Even worse, here is Todd Bentley, a King protoge, doing some really bad cold reading. You have to feel sorry for the people on the recieving end.

John Paul Jackson, who has taught at numerous Toronto conferences uses “auras” and “astrology” in his ministry, as evidenced by this report:

"During a week of corporate fasting as Olathe churches were merging with
KCF, John Paul Jackson was giving personal prophecies. He picked out seven women
with incestuous spirits. He mentioned in his presentation auras and astrology. I
confronted him afterwards with Wes Adams, John Heston and others. I suggested
these methods were of an occult nature. He said that they originated with God
and that he knew how many women had incestuous spirits by their black auras. He
recommended the book, Elijah Task by John & Paula Sandford…" (25)

The belief that occultic practices are acceptable in the church today stems from the belief that all things were created by God, and that this is an age of restoration. What is specifically problematic about the application of this doctrine is that they're using it to give them carte blanche to embrace any kooky occultic whatever that they come across. They have no rigorous doctrinal, theological or even rational litmus test to differentiate the original creation from the perverted; for example, if our ability to pray is God-given, and our ability to pray to Beelzebub is Satan's perversion thereof, then one cannot simply justify praying to Beelzebub on the grounds that praying is God-given. A Scripture-based litmus test that distinguishes the original creation from the perverted must be applied to these strange ideas.

The Manner of Prophecy

The third-wave church says is that it is acceptable, in fact desirable, to couch a prophetic word in a prayer, or counsel, rather than give it as a "thus saith the Lord".

A more orthodox belief held by mainline Charismatics (if there are any left) and Pentecostals is that if you have a prophetic word, it is generally better to state that it is indeed that. Some will disguise a word in prayer or by saying "I sense" in order to avoid having it judged. Steve Thompson even criticizes this method of stealth-prophecy but acknowledges that the Toronto stream teaches this and he feels it is appropriate for renewal-type (i.e. soaking) meetings. (26)

Furthermore, the third wave teaching is that we can take a more casual approach to prophecy and words of knowledge; we want people to grow in these things and we must extend grace and mercy always never making correction that could offend.

A more orthodox belief held by mainline Charismatics and Pentecostals is that all prophecy must be judged. There needs to be accountability. An accountable environment is one in which one can safely grow. "Prophecy" and "Words of Knowledge" are dangerous weapons able to destroy as easily as they can build up. Better to not give a word than to treat it casually.

The root of this casual approach to prophecy comes directly from the Morningstar doctrines and practices. According to Bill Randles:

"Bob Jones, in the tape “Shepherds Rod” told us that God has revealed to him that the rhema (spoken word) would be two-thirds accurate in the days to come. In other words, up to two-thirds of the time the prophets would be “right on.” Why not 100% of the time? If you listen to Bob Jones, you would be glad for inaccurate prophets! Why ? God showed Bob, supposedly, that if enough power was released to give us 100% accuracy, we would have dead Annanias’ and Sapphiras’ all over the place. (How’s that for making people actually thankful for inaccurate prophets?) Jones says we shouldn’t worry about inaccurate prophesies, for God told him that prophets are like guns and prophecies like bullets and inaccurate prophecies are like blanks. And he also says that God told him, “I’m loading the guns, I’m putting the blanks in!” Incredible. Jones would have us believe that God is responsible for inaccurate prophecies." (27)

Critical to this belief is the understanding that prophecy is something that you can grow in (learn) as opposed to an outright gift. While the point can be made that you can learn how to use the gift, it remains a gift nonetheless. And one which must be judged. At the Morningstar Church students reportedly sit at tables on the sides of the auditorium and will give you a prophecy (reading) if you ask. Sometimes they miss it, but that’s alright, they are learning. Contrast that with a statement from John Bevere, who in his seminal work on prophecy “Thus Saith the Lord” states that “There is no Junior Holy Spirit.”

Morningstar prophetic doctrine, as taught by Rick Joyner, Bob Jones, and Steve Thompson is based on the concept of “levels of revelation”. Joyner, in his 1997 book “The Prophetic Ministry” outlines these levels to include Impressions, Visions, Open Visions, Dreams, Trances, Other Prophetic Experiences, the Lord’s Audible Voice and Angelic Visitations. “Open Visions” for those who are not up to speed on such things, are when you continue to see the vision, like a movie, even as you go about everyday tasks such as driving. Steve Thompson teaches on these levels in his book “You May All Prophesy”. He includes in his lists of ways to receive the following: Impressions, Spiritual sight, Spiritual hearing, Spiritual smell, Spiritual touch, Spiritual taste, Dreams, Glimpses in the Spirit, Gentle Internal Visions, Strong Internal Visions, and Open Visions. Dreams may include Literal Dreams, Symbolic Dreams and Dreams of Angels or the Lord, which are not visitations but are high-level revelations.

According to this doctrine, Impressions are the “entry-level” revelations. Says Thompson “Many people who receive impressions like this may believe they are unstable because their emotions can change abruptly as they move from one situation to another. They do not understand that God is 'pulling the strings on their emotions' in order to speak to them.” (28)

The highest levels of revelation, according to Thompson and others, are “Trances” and “Caught up in the Spirit”. You may be more familiar with the terms “Spirit Travel”, “Astral Projection” or “Out of Body Experiences”. According to this teaching, being caught up in the Spirit is similar to a trance but the individual is actually transported somewhere.

Bob Jones reportedly experiences these (trances and spirit travel) on a regular basis. Third-wave church members have been overheard discussing participation in such activities. One wonders who is “pulling the strings on their emotions”. There does seem to be a direct correlation between the Toronto-Style of soaking, where one is told to “not pray in tongues or English for you are here to receive and that can hinder your reception” and this type of occultic activity. According to John Arnott “Don't take control, you can take control later. The whole deal is, you lose control”. (29)

There is a conspicuous tie between the doctrine of the seven hidden gospels and the levels of revelation. Because canonized scripture was given by a direct form of revelation it only seems logical to require that form of revelation to the additional seven that will be “added to the book”. And there is a connection to the restoration of the Apostolic office, as only those who have seen Jesus face-to-face have, to this point, been considered apostles. A simple vision will not suffice; one must have been transported to the throne room for this form of high revelation. Many of the Kansas City Prophets and people like Todd Bentley claim this level of authority.

In recent years just about everything in the third-wave church has been declared to be prophetic, be it “prophetic evangelism”, “prophetic soaking prayer” or even “prophetic flag waving” during the duration of the services. One of the most common terms these days for these third-wave churches within the Manifest Son’s movement is “The Prophetic Church”.

The Gnostic emphasis on the mystical experience, coupled with the need for a perverse emphasis on personal prophecy (negating the need for each believer to establish a direct working relationship with God) has brought the church to adopt stranger and stranger ways of hearing from God. The doctrines of “inherent inaccuracies” and “levels of prophecy” are now being taught and propagated in the third-wave church.

The Laying on of Hands

“Lay hands suddenly on no man, neither be partaker of other men's sins: keep thyself pure.” 1 Timothy 5:22

The third-wave church will very often say that "Laying on of hands suddenly" relates only to installing elders (leaders) and does not have a broad application. According to this belief, we must lay hands on all who come without question.

A more orthodox belief held by mainline Charismatics and Pentecostals is that 1 Timothy 5:22 has a much broader application in its original intent and context, that it really does not specifically relate to any installation ceremony, and that one can (and should) exercise the gift of discernment while in the midst of ministry because there are consequences (defilement) to laying hands suddenly (without due consideration).

Amazingly, this viewpoint (defilement) was taught in the early days of the Charismatic Church, as study groups used the Derek Prince Foundation Series. Prince states that there are three different type of laying on of hands: Healing, to receive the baptism in the Holy Ghost, and Ordination. He discusses 1 Timothy 5:22 in his chapter on the baptism but does not mention it in the chapter on the installation of leaders or sending out.

I believe that the interpretation of this verse, which applies it only to installation, comes from those with backgrounds in churches where the only time hands were laid on was during an installation. Third-wavers will allegorize other forms of laying on of hands as just a “point of contact”.

Historically, the emphasis on the laying on of hands in the modern spirit-filled church today can be traced back to the Latter Rain revival of 1948. This was one of the things that God was “restoring” to the church, along with “impartation of the mantle” and “sitting under one”. Not everyone has bought into this. To paraphrase theologian Fuschia Pickett: “You want my mantle? I don’t know what that really is, but if you want one, you should get yours where I got mine– from God.”

The practice of “laying hands on anything that moves” (as Rodney Howard-Browne instructed Randy Clark) can be traced directly back to Toronto, the birthplace of Soaking Prayer.

Related to this concept is the common practice of the “Fire Tunnel” where everyone is prayed for in an assembly-line fashion. Aside from the fact that the speed of the conveyor belt alone determined the amount of time that would be spent in ministry to an individual, one of the prime objections to this practice is that ALL who pass through will have hands laid on them. If you believe in the concept of transference (defilement) you can see that this has the potential to spread defilement through out the church.

The problem with laying hands on “all who come” is that some may come with hidden sins or bad motives. Jesus himself did not pray for everyone who wanted prayer. Let’s say that an individual has been secretly looking at pornography and comes forth for prayer. In the tradition of the current teaching on prophecy he receives a “safe” word, one which edifies, uplifts and comforts. “The Lord says I see your heart and I am well pleased. You cannot believe the things I have prepared for you. Whatever you set your hand to will prosper…”

The end result is that this person has been encouraged to continue in the manner of living that he has adopted, and in all likelihood the person offering the prayer and “prophecy” has somehow been defiled. It’s a downhill spiral from there.

Interestingly, at the Brownsville Revival (the revival of repentance) I observed that those in ministry would frequently just skip over some in line for “hands on” ministry. One should be very careful when some come forward (during ministry times) wanting hands laid on them, as they seek an illegitimate affirmation of their ministry.

I remain a firm believer that “greater is He that is in me than he that is in the world”; I am not afraid of demons, or their power. But I will not casually lay hands on anyone (without due consideration) simply because the scriptures teach me to be prudent.

Go to Part 3.

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22 Audio tape “The Shepherd’s Rod” Mike Bickle, Bob Jones. Fall, 1989.
23 Bob Jones, “Visions and Revelations” 1989.
24 Audio tape, Rick Joyner. See http://www.pawcreek.org/articles/endtimes/NewWorldOrderPart1PaulCainRickJoyner.htm
25 Ernest Gruen, “Documentation of the Aberrant Practices and Teachings of the Kansas City Fellowship” available at http://www.banner.org.uk/kcp/Abberent Practises.pdf
26 Steve Thompson “You May All Prophesy”.
27 Bill Randles, “Weight and Found Wanting” p. 64.
28 Steve Thompson “You May All Prophesy”
29 http://www.niksula.cs.hut.fi/~ahuima/toronto/threepoints.html

The Third-Wave incarnation of the Manifest Sons of God Heresy in the 21st Century Charismatic Church.

2010-11-30T14:55:00.003-05:00

The Manifest Sons of God

In 1948 a movement was born that remains a blight on the church to this day. It sprung out of a revival that was known as the “Latter Rain” revival. Heresy crept into this movement which shortly thereafter condemned by the Assemblies of God upon which it had a great effect. The erroneous doctrine known as the “Manifest Sons of God” (or Manifested Sons of God) was embraced by these “Latter Rain” proponents. This doctrine teaches an extreme eschatological view that the saints would be “glorified”, even “deified” right here on this earth before the resurrection. Other names by which this system of beliefs is identified include “Kingdom Now”, “Dominion Theology” or “Joel’s Army”. Proponents of this heresy believe that the end-time move of the spirit (prophesied by Joel) started with the Pentecostal movement, then the Charismatic Movement (which is now passé) and is now finally at what is being called “the Third Wave.”

One of the hallmarks of this movement is a de-emphasis on the scriptures and of doctrine. The Bible has become allegorical, and interpretations become subjective (1). Many within the third-wave movement have been conditioned, by the lack of sound biblical teaching, to believe that doctrine is unimportant. Leaders will often state that “relationship” is far more important than doctrine.

"For the last several years people have started to gather around fathers instead of doctrine." - Bill Johnson, Bethel Church

Who are they today?

It would take a book to document the connection between various players in the Manifest Sons movement today. Suffice to say, it would read like a who’s-who of conference speakers who are feeding the third-wave church (and especially the leadership and the elite) today.

Vineyard is one movement that has appropriated these beliefs. John Wimber, who in the early 70’s was a Quaker pastor, is credited with starting the Vineyard movement. Quakers teach that “every man has an inward light that was sufficient in itself to lead him to know God.”(2) By 1977 Wimber had started the Vineyard Christian Fellowship, which initially was associated with Chuck Smith’s Calvary Chapel. They left that association (because of their de-emphasis of the Word and various doctrinal problems)(3) and joined with seven other churches in the Vineyard Fellowships. Wimber became the leader of that association in the early 1980’s and remained leader until his death.

Wimber later became leader over a group known as the “Kansas City Prophets” at a time when they were under attack for their doctrinal positions and practices.(4) This major confrontation was resolved when Wimber stepped in and said he would deal with the problems and take them under his covering. As is typical within the third-wave movement, those problems were never really dealt with.

The Kansas City prophets included such internationally known “prophets” and conference speakers as Mike Bickle, Bob Jones, John Paul Jackson, Paul Cain, and Bob Jones. Affiliated with them, especially through his close working relationship with Bob Jones, is Rick Joyner of Morningstar. Francis Frangipane, Bobby Conner and Jill Austin (deceased) were in close association with all of the others. Prophecies from these persons are frequently shared on e-mail lists and web-sites.(5)

Paul Cain was revered by the others as the most significant, or true, Prophet. Cain was closely affiliated with William Branham, a proponent of the oneness doctrine (“Jesus only”) which denies the trinity. Branham is known as the father of the Latter Rain movement. Cain, although revered as a true prophet by many, has been discredited by most because of problems with alcohol and homosexuality. However, he was welcomed warmly to a "revival" meeting in Florida by revivalist Todd Bentley, who was later exposed as an adulterer when that revival "crashed and burned."

Also identified with the Kansas City Prophets and the Vineyard movement is Randy Clark (Global Awakening, Harrisburg, PA). Clark was instrumental in bringing the “Laughing Revival” to Toronto.(6) Clark was told by Rodney Howard-Browne to “lay hands on everything that moved.” Clark is well connected to Heidi Baker, who aside from her missions work is best known for her manifestations of "spiritual drunkenness."

The connections between these various “prophets” are well known and established. Reportedly, most, if not all, are part of the secret “Prophetic Roundtable” meetings which may still be hosted annually by Joyner (7). Core to their belief is the belief that they alone are to be trusted with God’s revelation. This is the same spirit of elitism seen in their sword rituals. Joyner himself likens the rest of the church to prisoners:

“The darkness from the cloud of vultures made it so hard for these prisoners to see that they naively accepted every-thing that happened to them as being from the Lord. They felt that those who stumbled were under God’s judgment. The only food provided for these prisoners was the vomit from the vultures. Those who refused to eat it simply weakened until they fell ... After drinking the bitter waters they would begin to vomit on the others. When one of the prisoners began to do this, a demon that was waiting for a ride would climb up on him, and would ride him up to one of the front divisions. Even worse than the vomit from the vultures was a repulsive slime that these demons were urinating and defecating upon the Christians they rode.”(8)

Although this quote was taken from one of Joyner’s works of fiction, Joyner himself does not call this book a work of fiction, but claims that it was given to him by divine revelation direct from God.

What They Believe

Latter Rain theology is a deep, all encompassing theology that can only be fully understood by careful review of the teachings and prophecies of those involved in it. It is not taught by these churches in a systematic manner, in fact all doctrine and theology is de-emphasized in contemporary “third-wave” congregations. Most will belittle those to whom “right thinking” is important. It is likely that many third-wave leaders don’t even fully understand their own system of beliefs and how these beliefs translate into practice.

“While we wait for the blessed hope--the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ.” (Titus 2:13)

Paramount to their theology is a ridicule of those who await the return of Christ, who will return for his church and take it away. This concept is known as the “Rapture”, a basic tenet of the Bible (9). Granted, the timing of the Rapture has always been a point of discussion.

The Manifest Son’s position is best defined by “prophet/apostle” Bill Hamon:

“When Jesus comes to translate His Church, it will not be God’s heavenly helicopter coming to air-lift the saints all out before they backslide or before the Devil has overrun their camp. When Jesus comes it will not be because the battle is too great for the army of the Lord. Neither will it be to jerk the Church out before the Antichrist system detours it; nor a retreat of an emergency rapture to preserve the Church from extinction… Those who preach the maturity of the Church and restoration of all scriptural truths believe the purpose of the rapture-translation is strictly for the immortalization of the saints.” (10)

The promise of the “Blessed Hope” is not an escapist mentality (just holding out until the helicopter escape), but rather one which should encourage us to share the Gospel with others before it is too late.

Manifest Sons believe that God is establishing a church that will grow stronger and stronger in the last days. It will be an overcoming church. There will be a restoration of the church to all truths that Satan had robbed her of. The offices of the prophets and apostles will be restored to the church. Through this the church would be led into greater truth.

Most alarming is Joyner’s belief (embraced by Bob Jones and Steve Thompson) that there are “seven hidden gospels”. These gospels will be revealed to the church in the last days. This, of course, explains the need to restore the offices of the prophets and the apostles, as the canon of the New Testament was delivered to the apostles (ones who had actually seen Jesus). Naturally, spirit travel will be required for today’s apostles to see Jesus face-to-face. Several, including Joyner and Jones, have claimed this authority. Says Joyner:

“The apostolic ministry that opened the church age will be raised up at the end to complete it.” (11)

Mike Bickle says “I think there will be 35 like unto Paul… There would be 35 whom the Lord would separate in the highest way. The government rests on the apostles and prophets.”(12) Contrast this with Isaiah 9:6 (“the government shall be upon HIS shoulder”) and you will see where this is going.

Seven Hidden Gospels? Listen to Joyner’s own words:

"The 'good word of God' is the message of the kingdom. John the Baptist and the Lord Jesus preached this message. However, just as many of the most important doctrines of the faith were obscured after the first century A.D., the true gospel of the kingdom is yet to be recovered and preached by the last day church. This message is also represented in Revelation 11:15 as the seventh trumpet".(13)

Morningstar's Steve Thompson, who wrote the book "That all may Prophesy", has also made reference to the seven hidden gospels in the context of the seven thunders in Revelation 10:14. This is where John ate the scrolls, sweet to the taste but bitter to the stomach. The belief that more scriptures are to be revealed is behind the doctrines and practices of “levels of prophecy” and the restoration of the office of the apostle.(15) One of Joyner’s books is in fact entitled “the Apostolic Ministry”.(16)

Bill Hamon states that “the Lord Jesus” gave him a vision in which he was shown a great book. The Book was titled “The Book of the Mortal Church on Earth”. He was shown this book so that he could make the progressive purpose of God known to the corporate Church.(17) If not one of the seven hidden gospels, it is still Joseph Smithesque in its nature.

To the Manifest Sons’ the rapture will not be the pre-millenial rapture suggested by an examination of the scripture. It will not even be an actual rapture where the saints are “caught up” into the clouds to meet the Lord in the air (1 Thessalonians 4:17).

Allegory, as usual, takes over. Instead of leaving the earth for the marriage supper of the Lamb, the church stays behind and will become increasingly militant. It will become stronger and prevail during the tribulation. John Wimber tells us that this militant “Joel’s Army” will overcome opposition to the gospel and will eventually subdue the nations until they gain power and authority throughout the world. “The government of the nations shall be upon their shoulders and when all secular authorities, governments, princes and kings have finally submitted to them, Christ will return and they will present the kingdom to Him.” (18)

The concept of this dominant church (Dominion theology) may seem appealing. But is it scriptural? The bulk of the evidence says that it is not. But the theology goes far beyond this. Drawing on Romans 8:19, which talks of the “manifestation of the sons of God”, they make the quantum leap into Mormonic theology, where they believe we will not only undergo a translation into immortalization (see Hamon quote above) but moreover we will become divine.

It is this very belief that we will somehow become a super-race of divine “Manifest Sons” that is the keystone of this apostasy. Strong words? Yes. Listen to the voice of Bob Jones; these words are even stronger:

“They themselves (the church) will be the generation that’s raised up to put death itself underneath their feet.” (19)

Biblical Christianity believes that JESUS has put death under HIS feet. Any other belief denies the completed work of Christ.(20) Jones’ comment is similar to the earlier one concerning the government being on the shoulders of the prophets and apostles. Both reflect the Manifest Sons belief that we shall attain deity, we (the corporate church) shall become the Christ.

Note an emphasis in third-wave teachings that Christ means “the anointed one” and that we, implicitly, can become anointed and become “Christs”. Somehow, in this theology, the church morphs into the Christ, negating the need for Christ’s return in any but an allegorical sense. As part of this system of beliefs, they teach that Christ was a pattern (for us), and that we will exceed the example that he set, as we become the “uber-Christs."

"Jesus was the pattern son, the “firstborn son”…the time has come again for the woman to be “delivered”, to travail and bring forth” … In the time of the corporate Messiah- Christ being formed in a people." (21)

And as we shall see in our next article, these beliefs correspond with some rather unusual practices, and these practices are being embraced by third-wave churches across the world.

Go to Part 2.

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1 For instance the popular concept (and book title) “You May All Prophesy”, taken from 1 Cor 14:31, is used to promote the idea that everybody should prophesy. Verse 29 is left out of that discussion, which says “Let the prophets speak two or three..” The meaning of verse 31, which says “you may all prophesy one by one” is that all (three) should take turns and not all speak at the same time. Proponents of the belief that all should prophesy will respond by stating that they are not talking about prophesying during a service, neglecting to note that the scripture they use to support this notion is talking about decorum during the assembly of the saints.
2 Bill Randles :Weighed and Found Wanting”, St. Matthew Publications 1995. pg 77.
see http://www.theothersideoftheriver.com/Books/Weighed.pdf
3 Problems included reports of levitating, aura reading, along with other occult practices to which Wimber responded “God is above His Word” and “God is not limited by His word”, both Quaker beliefs.
4 See http://www.birthpangs.org/articles/kcp/Abberent%20Practises.pdf
5 Commonly by small private email distribution lists. These “prophetic” words are also available on-line at www.elijahlist.com , although it now appears that the false prophecies concerning Y2K are no longer archived.
6 For $3640 (2004) you can spend two weeks in Africa on a missions trip with Clark.
7 The existence of these meetings is well known but it is hard to determine who actually takes part in them even though they make authoritative prophetic declarations to the global church.
8 Rick Joyner “The Final Quest” .
9 A good paper on “the rapture” may be found at http://ag.org/top/beliefs/position_papers/4182_rapture.cfm
10 Bill Hamon “The Eternal Church”, p.114.
11 Rick Joyner, “Mobilizing the Army of God” pp.14-215.
12 Mike Bickle, audio tape “Visions and Revelations”
13 Rick Joyner, “Mobilizing the Army of God” p. 45
14 http://www.hispraise.com/MorningStar/SThompson.htm
15 An excellent paper on the topic of Apostles and Prophets may be found at
http://ag.org/top/beliefs/position_papers/4195_apostles_prophets.pdf
16 Steve Thomson’s latest book is entitled “A 20th century Apostle”.
17 Bill Hamon “Apostles, Prophets, and the Coming Moves of God”, p. 131.
18 Clifford Hill, “Prophecy Today”
19 Bob Jones, “Visions and Revelations” Fall 1988.
20 For references see I Cor. 15:27 also vs. 55, Ephesians 1:22 and Hebrews 2:8.
21 Kelly Varner, “The Time of the Messiah”, p. 75.

Tokin' the Baby Jesus? What?

2010-11-16T14:50:00.037-05:00

I've really avoided speaking about much of my personal history, as it is too easy to look like one is focusing on personalities and not issues. Personalities have never been the issue, and I apologize if it looks like I am making it so. That is not my intention here; the issues are important and I speak from my distasteful first-hand experiences. These experiences were real and so are the people involved in it. They are your neighbors and your friends.

About six years ago, where I formerly attended church, a brother and I had many conversations with the leadership over the practices of the (for lack of a better term) spiritually "elite." The elite's emphasis was contained in the catchphrase "the party is now." Below is a video of the kind of events that were taking place with the approval of the church leadership.

A fire tunnel, for the uninitiated, is a conveyor-belt hands-laying-suddenly prayer line which features mass impartation (or defilement). It was only one issue of many. The leadership refused to draw a line in the sand, confusing enthusiasm and passion with Godly virtues. Indeed, they can be, but they can also be driven by the flesh or demonic spirits. As an aside, the adversarial pastor, who signed all his letters "In His Grip," was ironically discovered to be in the grip of fleshly passion instead and eventually was dismissed. That should have been a "teachable moment," but the elites continued on, perhaps as time went by in a less public manner, now with certain "glory" meetings moving off the church property (but still promoted in the church bulletin).

Fast-forward six years, and now some of these same folks are now associating with the "tokin the ghost" crowd. That this was happening should have been obvious given the elite's close public association (it's called the "world wide web" for a reason) with the New Mystics: John Crowder, David Vaughn and Ben Dunn. I've known about it for almost two years since the publication of a letter from one of them on an Emerge Wales website speaking positively of experiences at a so-called "Mystical School" in Atlanta. Broken link.

The practices of those involved with the new mystics are beyond bizarre. Frankly, I thought most people were aware of this- its old news in apologetics circles- but for the unenlightened, here is a little information about "tokin the holy ghost" and the play-acting experiences of the "new mystics."

Prophetic play-acting has always been a part of this movement and its predecessors. Years ago, a group from our church (the beforementioned elites) came back from Toronto waving (imaginary and invisible) prophetic swords. And apparently, you had to go to Toronto to "get" this impartation, and if you did not have it you were part of the unwashed, or what they referred to in Toronto as HTR ("hard to receive"). Later, they moved to a real sword, which they used in secret upper-room ceremonies to "knight" each other in a "prophetic" manner. In once such ceremony, participants would kneel before an leader who would tap them on the shoulders with a jewel-encrusted Arthurian sword.

All of this in spite of a warning directed to this church about the swordplay from Gary Bergel, then director of Intercessors of America. According to Joyner, a national prayer leader (presumably Bergel) had already exchanged words with Rick Joyner at Morningstar about the same issues. As with Joyner, Bergel was marginalized and ignored. It was a true prophetic word and it was ignored. (See sidebar on "Rick Joyner Swordplay" for more).

Let's go back a little further. The Nehushtan was a sacred object in the form of a copper snake upon a pole. You can read about it in Numbers 21. As an aside, please note WHO sent the poisonous snakes in the first place, and why. Anyhow, Numbers 21:9 tells us "So Moses made a bronze snake and put it on a pole, so that if a snake had bitten someone, when he looked at the bronze snake he lived." The notes in the NET Bible tell us:

"The image of the snake was to be a symbol of the curse that the Israelites were experiencing; by lifting the snake up on a pole Moses was indicating that the curse would be drawn away from the people – if they looked to it, which was a sign of faith. This symbol was later stored in the temple, until it became an object of worship and had to be removed ( 2 Kings 18:4 ). Jesus, of course, alluded to it and used it as an illustration of his own mission. He would become the curse, and be lifted up, so that people who looked by faith to him would live." (John 3:14).

See, here's the problem. This object, given by God, had been made a god by the children of Israel. So what did Hezekiah do? "He also demolished the bronze serpent that Moses had made, for up to that time the Israelites had been offering incense to it; it was called Nehushtan." (2 Kings 18:4 )

Here's the bottom line: the Children of God have trouble with objects. It was no mistake when God said, in Exodus 20:4 “You shall not make for yourself a carved image or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above or that is on the earth beneath or that is in the water below. " I would also note, that as with the Golden Calf, graven images and debauchery go hand in hand (c.f. Exodus 32).

So, how do you think God feels about people who "prophetically" (play-acting) suck on small baby-dolls and say they are tokin' on the baby jesus and then begin to act as if they are (in their words) "drunk in the Holy Ghost?"

The theological concept is not obscure or hard to grasp. Here it is:

THE HOLY GHOST IS NOT A PLAY TOY.

Yes, I've seen apostle Tony Fitzgerald chase a leader of my former church around the room at a men's retreat, trying to lay hands on him and "slay him in the spirit" as they both giggled. And more recently, the image of James Goll, sucking on a baby jesus to get high, sticks in my mind. And for years, people have been explaining off weird manifestations.

"You know lots of those people manifesting, its actually angels fooling around, messing with them and stuff. Angels are really playful."
-John Crowder

Let me repeat, in case you don't quite understand:

THE HOLY GHOST IS NOT A PLAY TOY.

When you combine "objects" with mocking the Holy Ghost, you are setting yourself up for massive and painful correction from God Almighty, if you have not already crossed the line drawn in 2 Thessalonians 2:11.

"Consequently God sends on them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false."

Yes, I understand that eschatologically we are not quite there yet, but remember who sent the poisonous snakes in Numbers 21, and please, as if your life depends on it (it does) understand that God himself implores you to 1) not be deceived and that 2) He cannot be mocked. And this is the real application of "reaping and sowing." See Galatians 6:7.

The Actual Practice

There is so much doctrinally wrong with the "new mystics" that I hesitate to even focus on their practices. I have written before about spiritual drunkenness, a practice that dates back to the early days of the Toronto "blessing." However, "tokin' the ghost" or whatever you want to call it, seems to go beyond the pale, and as with Todd Bentley's adulterous affair during a revival, should serve as a wake-up call to the church.

Crowder and his friends like to pretend they are smoking weed ("jehovahauna") and get (or pretend to get) totally tanked. They do this in the context of a church meeting and think it a good thing. Sometimes it is an imaginary reefer, sometimes they use little plastic baby dolls (the "baby jesus") as imaginary pipes, sometimes they "huff" on olive wood from the Garden of Gethsemane, or snort dust from the tomb of Jesus. Many of the most offensive source videos have been removed from the Internet but some compilations remain (also this), but I've seen all of this in the original context - and more, including two girls puffing on a six-foot cross, drawing lines (as in cocaine) across a bible and snorting it, play acting injections (as in heroin) and play- acting the suckling of the breasts of God.

Are they just mentally ill, or is something demonic going on here? Were you paying attention to the snake thing earlier? Perhaps Romans 1:28 is true- God has given them over to a reprobate (depraved) mind. What is your explanation?

I implore you- if this stuff has touched you - and the point of this article is that it is close-to-home - repent of it (turn) and ask God to cleanse you before it is too late. Furthermore, I would ask you to consider getting into a word-honoring church, one where doctrine is not seen as divisive, but as a safety net to protect us from these very things. Scripture is important, in fact it is "is inspired by God and useful for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness." In my own experience, a lot of trouble could have been avoided if this message had been received six years ago.

Have you personally seen these things? Can you defend the indefensible without lobbing the "religious spirit" bombs? Let's talk - post your thoughts below.

--------------

additional info

Where the Whack Comes from - John Crowder

John Crowder Mystical School Atlanta 09 I know people in this video.

Logos v. Rhema, Round Two

2010-10-21T09:05:00.004-04:00

Continuing our discussion of rhema vs. logos, I'd like to quote the chief apostle and theologian of the NAR (New Apostolic Reformation), C. Peter Wagner.

"Pentecostal theologians have made the helpful suggestion of distinguishing the logos word of God from the rhema word of God.... The rhema is regarded as a more immediate word from God which we do not find in the 66 books of the Bible." (1)

Of course, those Pentecostal theologians would also subordinate the rhema to the logos. But Wagner is not content to allow that.

I would. God could tell me, in a still, quiet voice, or even a loud one, to share a word of testimony to the man at the filling station this evening. That's an immediate (rhema) word not found in the Bible, but one that also does not contradict the Bible. And my actions would be constrained by the bible; for instance, I should not say "repent or I will kill you." So far, so good.

Wagner's friend, "Apostle" John Eckhardt, says that apostles are "often the first to preach certain revelations that God is releasing to the church." (2) We are talking modern-day apostles here: "An apostle can come in and establish new revelation." (3)

So it appears that under the paridigm of the NAR, the rhema word is not subservient the the logos word, it actually can trump the logos word with "new revelation."

Wagner again:

"...a valid source of divine knowledge comes through what some would call extrabiblical revelation. I daresay that the standard- brand evangelical doctrine of logos only that we were taught might now find a place on an endangered doctrines list, about to become extinct." (4)

Bill Hamon is another "prophet-apostle" that runs with the Wagner crowd. According to one website, Hamon "believes God has chosen him to restore doctrines that the church lost through the ages and to reveal new doctrines and final assignments." It goes on to say "Many of Hamon’s doctrines can’t be found in the Bible — but this doesn’t concern Hamon, who teaches that modern “apostles” and “prophets” give the church new doctrines that supplement those given by the original apostles and prophets." (5)

Quoting Hamon:

"He [Paul] also reveals that this anointing for divine revelation was not just given to the prophets of old but has now been equally given to Christ’s Holy Apostles and Prophets in His Church." (6)

Reportedly Hamon believes that there are additional books of scripture yet to be written, and also that he has written one of those books. (7)

I think the battle line has been drawn. You should not remain neutral on this topic.

In closing, here's a quote from Wayne Grudem:

"At various times throughout the history of the church, and particulary in the modern charismatic movement, people have claimed that god has given revelations through them for the benefit ofthe church,. However we may evaluate such claims, we must be careful never to allow (in theory or practice) the placing of such revelations on a level equal to Scripture. We must insist that God does not require us to believe anything about himself or his work in the world that is contained in these revelations but not in scripture. The Bible contains all the words of God we need for trusting and obeying him perfectly." (8)

For further reading I would suggest this article, from which I borrowed several quotes.

http://www.letusreason.org/Latrain22.htm

Also, Grudem's "Systematic Theology" has a full chapter on the Sufficiency of Scripture and additional discussions elsewhere on the nature of prophecy for today.

It's more than I can really cover in a blog article, but it is something that we all need to think about from time to time.

(1) Wagner, C. P. (1991). Engaging the enemy: How to fight and defeat territorial spirits. Ventura, Calif: Regal Books, pp.15-16.

(2) Eckhardt, J. (1999). Moving in the apostolic. Ventura, Calif: Renew, p.45.

(3) ibid, p.56.

(4) Wagner, C. P. (1996). Confronting the powers: How the new testament church experienced the power of strategic-level spiritual warfare. The Prayer warrior series. Ventura, Calif., U.S.A: Regal Books, p.55.

(5) http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Wolves/bill_hamon.htm

(6) Hamon, B. (1997). Apostles prophets and the coming moves of God: God's end-time plans for His church and planet Earth. Santa Rosa Beach, FL: Christian International, p.140.

(7) If anyone can source this, please let me know.

(8) Grudem, W. A. (1994). Systematic theology: An introduction to biblical doctrine. Leicester, England: Inter-Varsity Press.

A most horrific tweet

2010-10-06T08:16:00.012-04:00

I've just recieved a email message containing Bill Johnson's latest tweet. I think my email client has great discernment.

I've always said that Bill Johnson is simply Tulsa recycled. And the argument is not new; I remember Haginites, back in the 70s, expounding the rhema word over the logos Word. In Tulsa-speak, the logos Word is the written Word of God, the rhema word is some sort of contemporary prophetic word. We don't hear these terms today, now, to some, the Bible is called "stale manna" and a prophetic word is a "fresh word."

For the record, I don't despise prophecy. I believe that God speaks today, and that He speaks into my daily affairs. I expect His guidance.

I've heard (and experienced) too many testimonies of God leading one to speak to this person or pray for that person to ignore His present involvement in our lives. But the rhema word does not establish doctrine, it does not set the rules for living and dying, it does not change the conditions for salvation, it does not set dates for the return of Jesus, and it never contradicts what is contained in the Holy Bible. The rhema word is subordinate to the logos Word.

And please note that when we set up the either/or argument, that is a false premise to start with. We don't have to choose. We get to have the written Word, which we esteem highly, AND God's daily guidance, which we test against the written Word.

Some may dismiss this tweet as just a bunch of twaddle, but I've run this past a few lovers of the Word (who are also Pentecostals) and the horror on their faces was most revealing. Some were seasoned saints, others babes in Christ. Johnson's message is not unclear; it does not need further explanation. It is simply disgusting.

Once we start down this slippery slope, apostasy is not far off. As expressed by one disciple of Johnson, the phrase "the wisdom of men" in 1 Corinthians 2:5 refers to Holy Scripture. Can you see where this is going?

"And I was with you in weakness and in fear and much trembling, and my
speech and my message were not in plausible words of wisdom, but in
demonstration of the Spirit and of power, that your faith might not rest in the wisdom of men but in the power of God."

I'm stunned. And so would be the early church Johnson speaks of and with whom he wants to identify.

Contrary to Johnson's assertion, the early church DID have Holy Scriptures. And how they loved them. Let's take a look at a few quotes from their Bible:

"Thy word have I hid in my heart, that I might not sin against thee."

"I will delight myself in God's statutes; I will not forget His Word."

"I will delight myself in thy commandments, which I have loved. My hands also will I lift up unto thy commandments, which I have loved; and I will meditate in thy statutes."

"O how love I thy law! it [is] my meditation all the day. Thy word [is] a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path."

"Therefore I love thy commandments above gold; yea, above fine gold."

"My son, attend to my (God's) words; incline your ear unto my sayings. Let them (the scriptures) not depart from thine eyes; keep them in the midst of thine heart."

I dunno, it sounds like they valued the scriptures. The above quotations are things that believers in the early church embraced, recited, taught, and probably had memorized.

But don't take my word for it. We sent a "man on the street" to conduct a few interviews with those in the early church, and here's what the believers had to say:

"But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves."

"Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord."

"Every scripture is inspired by God and useful for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness."

"That we who first trusted in Christ (the early church) should be to the praise of His glory, In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise."

"Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for her, that He might sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word."

"And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God."

"Wherefore comfort one another with these words (New Testament scripture)."

"As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby."

"Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy (recorded in the New Testament), and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand. "

"We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost."

Selah.

Touch Not Mine Anointed

2010-10-01T09:44:00.013-04:00

I'm frustrated, that's for certain. Is there a single person in the Prophetic/Apostolic movement that is willing to actually discuss the issues I've been raising on this blog? It seems like most of them are too busy to do anything but a "drive-by"- as a few recently have done. When the total substance of their contribution to the discussion is "Don't you see what you are doing?" or "I recommend you think long and hard about what you are doing" you have to wonder if they have ever prepared a defense for what they believe.

These type of comments are just another twist on the old Charismatic cliche "Touch not Mine Anointed."

When well-meaning Christians quote 1 Chronicles 16:22 ("Do not touch My anointed ones, and do My prophets no harm," NASB) to cover up corruption or charlatanism, they do horrible injustice to Scripture. This passage does not require us to stay quiet when a leader is abusing power or deceiving people. - Lee Grady

Rev. Rafael D. Martinez, Co-Director, Spiritwatch Ministries has written a very good series of articles on the Five-Fold Ministry. I'd like to quote a portion of one of those articles at length as he expresses my thoughts on this subject quite well.

Many people today would do quite well to study the structures of spiritual abuse which manifested itself in the discipleship movement in the early 70s - this occurred before most of today's "new breed" were even born. I can speak of such things from first-hand experience, as my tithes trickled up the pyramid to Bob Mumford.

Long story short- your threats and warnings do not intimidate me. They only cause me to see your immaturity. Un-kept promises to dialouge confirm that assessment. I am constantly humbled as I realize the folly of things I once believed. But I've made a committment to love God with all my heart AND all my mind. And you know what? He's big enough to let me do that. In fact- He REQUIRES it.

* * * *

With the position established that God ordains the authority, judgment and leadership of the fivefold minister, their authority is then rendered beyond any review, dialogue and challenge. Trusting that they walk in a divine integrity their fivefold "anointing" imparts to them, the disciples of fivefold ministers offer a complete deference to their authority that is difficult to over emphasize. Any dissent can be seen as compromise, any attempt at dialogue a challenge of God's very sovereignty. This has helped create and perpetuate a mystique of infallibility that is cloaked about the shoulders of fivefold ministers.

However, this divine office of authority seems inexplicably very quickly offended: note the defensive tone of fivefold prophet Bill Hamon when speaking of this in one of his most popular books:

God is very sensitive about His prophets. To touch one of His prophets is to touch the apple of his eye. To reject God's prophets is to reject God. To fail to recognize the prophets, or to keep them from speaking, is to refuse God permision to speak." (emphasis author) (37).

As shrill as this may sound, it is however understandable when one considers the logical outcome of Hamon's belief about the fivefold ministry's authority. It must not be questioned since the fivefold minister is supposedly set apart to speak for God, so any interference with such a divine flow of revelation is viewed as an affront against God Himself. Prophets (and by default all fivefold ministers) who speak for God are to recognized, listened to, accepted and never second-guessed, and any members of the fivefold congregation who do so, Hamon asserts, are those who "touch God's anointed" and incur his wrath. Fivefold minister Jon Arno, in a prophetic utterance recorded online that supposedly is a word from the Lord Himself, brooks no "opposition" to the fivefold ministry's authority:

Be careful again I say. Do not be found out as speaking against the Lord’s anointed as there is no more room in the cup. Teach those around you to be slow to speak, quick to listen. Judge everything by the word of God. If you are not sure, don't say anything. For God takes the foolish things of this world to confound the wise. (38)

Say nothing, the God of Arno's oracle commands, against the "anointed" - indeed, "He" says that we must avoid the temptation to speak and simply to listen and accept their lead. And if there is any uncertainty in your deliberation of what you hear from Apostle X or Pastor Y, say nothing - express no opinion whatsoever - and avoid divine judgment. This is supposedly inspired by the same "God" that told the apostle Paul in 1 Thessalonians 5 to not only "quench not the Spirit" but to "prove all things" and to "hold fast to that which is good." Arno's God demands silence from any dissent of believers and expects their total obedience to the fivefold ministers He is supposed to have sent into their lives, no matter how peculiar, unorthodox, questionable or flat out weird they or their methods might be.

Such a position raises a critical point that must be emphasized strongly: if you deny the means to question, you also deny the means to THINK and to DISCERN truth from error. With distrust of one's own ability to question firmly implanted alongside the mandate to completely trust another person's ability to sit in judgment over you and your life, reason becomes selectively anesthetized. The ability to reason and exercise freedom of conscience when it comes to spiritual matters that directly impact one's personal lifestyle is then made subject to the dictates of others. Determining whether a claim is right or wrong is therefore intentionally shut down for the sake of the fivefold authority to be exercised.

And when this happens, as it already has in fivefold congregations all across the U.S. and the world, there is then nothing - absolutely nothing - to prevent the complete control of the behavior of Christians since their thought is effectively being controlled by their fivefold leaders. No other social safeguards or balances are possible at this point that would ensure the stability of any spiritual fellowship's social circles. Sadly, there's another term for this kind of powerful dynamic - it's called mind control. And mind control is the lingua franca, the common language and universal characteristic of manipulative and dangerous cultic groups. The parallels between cults and abusive fivefold ministries are too clear at this point to ignore.

Tragically, this has become a mundane and daily reality shadowing the lives of far too many Christians who were supposedly delivered from their own spiritual bondages of our fallen world. That these kind of purely human forms of cunning manipulation are cited as originating from divine design are troubling enough. But to understand that there are generations of Christian people who have meekly submitted to this kind of control out of fear of displeasing God when it is the whims of man they are actually bowing to is perhaps the ultimate indignity for the human spirit as it seeks to love and serve God and ends up in the fear of man.

excerpt from http://spiritwatch.org/firefivespab3.htm

There's much more to that article, and the entire series, and I would invite you to read it. Martinez, as myself, is old-school Pentecost, and does not deny the working of the Spirit today, nor the application of prophetic and apostolic giftings in the body today. It's a Charismatic-safe read.

Let's talk.

Your Pastors are Lying

2010-06-03T20:05:00.005-04:00

Mike Bickle recently said "I feel like many of God's shepherds are lying, they're just telling lies about the Bible." What kind of lies and deception could he possibly be speaking of?

Beloved, we're not waiting, 'Oh, rapture me out of here,' a lot of people are waiting to be taken up. They want to go up so they can escape the tribulation and the Lord's waiting for us to grow up to loose the tribulation, through the prayers of faith, I mean the global, united eschatological prayers of faith. Now I know that's a lot of big terms there, or whatever, but we're going to be talking about some of these areas.
-Mike Bickle, OneThing 2008 Podcast 3

I suppose the only way to have a global, united eschatological prayer of faith is to dismiss the prayers of those Christians who disagree. Or you could just not even consider them as truely part of the body. Mike Bickle is not one to shy back from his opinion. In fact, at several places in a three-podcast series, Bickle told the youth of Americal that their pastors were lying.

Some have stated that the "pastors are lying" comments that Bickle repeatedly made before the 2008 One Thing conference were in reference to the "emerging church." You think?

Three videos remain on YouTube which strongly suggest that, among other things, Bickle was speaking of Pre-tribbers such as the Assemblies of God, the largest Pentecostal denomination in the world, who hold to what he calls a "dangerous deception. "

Granted, he does use the term "emerging generation" and also speaks of the "false justice movement" which may lead some to think he is speaking of the emergent church. And he also says something about the "prophetic" church (Hey Mike, who let that monster out of the box?).

But, as seen from the session titles, almost all of the One Thing '08 sessions dealt with eschatology- and his promise in the videos was that he would deal with the lies that pastors were telling.

Here are some more quotes from the podcast series:

"There's a third mandate at IHOP that we haven't talked that much about - this year we're going to focus on it and that's the - what - God's end time plan. What He's going to do particularily, specifically with the body of Christ, in the generation that He returns. I believe we're in those days...."

"Right now the Lord is wanting to get forerunners locked in -really with clarity- about the end-time plan...."

"I feel like the shepherds in the body of Christ are lying on so many levels - they're lies- and I don't mean that there insidious lies where they're in the backroom thinking it through and coming out saying "I'm going to lie to people." I mean there's lies at so many levels, there's lies about how to get saved, there's lies about what the mandate of the kingdom is, there's lies about how the church is supposed to be built, there's lies about what God wants to do with the generation, the young generation that's emerging."

Note that 3 of the 4 areas characterized as "lies" involve the end-times.

Bickle again:

"Beloved we're not waiting "Oh, rapture me out of here," a lot of people are waiting to be taken up, they want to go up so they can escape the tribulation, and the Lord's waiting for us to GROW UP to LOOSE THE TRIBULATION through the prayers of faith, the global united escatalogical prayers of faith, I know that's a lot of big terms there, whatever - we're going to be talking about some of these areas."

As an aside, the theme of a maturing body "loosing tribulation" is, if not MSoG, a very dominion- oriented variation of that theme.

Podcast 1 Podcast 2 Podcast 3

In these videos Bickle promised to expose these falsehoods in his upcoming conference. Supporting the conclusion many have made that Bickle was speaking of the pre-tribbers and not the emerging church is the entire content of the 2008 OneThing conference which had a dominant eschatological theme. In Mike Bickle's published notes he states:

The weakness of this view (Pre-Trib) is its error that Jesus will rapture the Church before the Tribulation. It is a dangerous deception that hinders the effectiveness of the gospel in several ways.
-Mike Bickle, Apostolic Pre-Millennialism

Without getting into a discussion of Pre-Trib vs. Post-Trib, suffice it to say statements which seem to place Godly pastors into the Revelation 21:8 roll call of Hell is a pretty repulsive thing to do.

If he exposed the "lies" of the emergent church in this conference, I have not yet found it in the conference notes or the videos. If it is there, I would like to know.

Furthermore, the nature of the conversations in the IHOP chat rooms shortly after the conference confirm that the nature of the lies involved eschatology.

Keep in mind that the "lie" statement at the beginning of podcast 2 suggests that some of these lies are about the emergent and seeker-sensitive churches. Or support for Obama in the election. See also his comment at 08:16 in podcast 3 "We want to confront things, the deception in the emergent church and groups like this..."

Let's be generous here. It appears that Bickle's comments were not targeted solely at the pre-trib church, but instead were targeted at all churches (pre-trib, emergent and others) that do not have his "revelation."

So perhaps the theme is, if I can tie it into my current series on Mike Bickel's 1983 "Trumpet" sermon, is that the elite spirit ("We get it, no one else does" ) continues to this day in Kansas City.

Or as Mike Bickle once said:

We had an elite spirit. That's become more and more real to
me - it's so repulsive"
-Mike Bickle, Charisma Magazine July 1993.

Mike Bickle and the Man-Child, Redux

2010-05-31T11:18:00.006-04:00

Recently we began an ongoing series on the recently recovered recording of Mike Bickle's seminal sermon "Blow The Trumpet in Zion." It was recorded in the early days of the Kansas City Fellowship, five weeks after the appearance of Prophet Bob Jones. The night before this address God gave Mike Bickle a call to gather a solemn assembly. Although a critical document concerning Bickle's IHOP movement, it had dropped off the radar, perhaps because it reveals failed prophecy and bad doctrine.

I'd like to make a side comment regarding my thoughts about the blog world. While I spend quite a bit of time on background research, I challenge my readers to be good Bereans and look into the things I say. This is the power of the blogosphere. Blogging is interactive; you cannot imagine the amount of useful information I recieve as a result of these articles, much of it privately and off the blog.

I have been in contact with several people who were actually part of Mike Bickle's church back in its formative years. The insight has been very helpful. Others have provided factual material. Please understand, I am more than willing to change or make corrections to the articles as a result of this sort of feedback. That is the synergy that is realized through blogging - and it is these very articles that has brought on the flow of information.

And I am thankful that Mike Bickle has also opened himself to Berean inquiry. So please do not get defensive when I bring his teachings up for discussion.

I mandate you to boldly challenge everything you hear me, Allen Hood, Lou Engle, any of the main leaders here, anything you hear us say, I mandate you to challenge it, to see if its in the Word of God, and if its not, then you have the mandate to appeal to us to get it correct.

-Mike Bickle, OneThing 2008 12-29-2008

And why the fascination with all things Bickle? I don't want to overstate the importance of IHOP, because 95% of Christendom has never heard of it or Mike Bickle, but IHOP is having a profound impact (good and bad) on Charismatic and Pentecostal churches througout the world. Many people are looking for answers- is the IHOP model something our church should embrace? Should I encourage my child to become a "prayer missionary?" Can IHOP dominionism co-exist with my church's eschatological viewpoint, or are our pastors simply lying to us?

And please understand, when a public figure states in an address to our children, as did Mike Bickle in 2008, that our "pastors are lying," such a person invites public inquiry.

A faithful reader has pointed out that in Mike Bickle's contemporary series on the book of Revelation Mike (now) states that the male Child is Jesus. see page 3. So the question is, in 1983, did Mike Bickle believe that Jesus was going to return in 1986? Or did he believe in some sort of JW-esque return of His presence? Or was he actually, despite his current denials, teaching MSoG in 1983?

We will continute to look at this document, which indeed is foundational in IHOP beliefs and practices. If Mike Bickle today states "Some uphold the false teaching (MSoG) that in this age believers can have faith that will enable them to attain to qualities of life that are reserved only for believers in the resurrection," then he is clearly denying a current connection with the MSoG heresy. On the otherhand, there can be no doubt that the IHOP orginization has an unhealthy emphasis on dominionsim.

I am posting this article today to bring your attention to this information which has been incorporated into my May 12th article Bickle and the Man-Child. Part of the rationale for transcribing "Trumpet" is to look for similarities between Bickle's teachings of 1983 to what he teaches today. Does he have the right to change (grow in) his beliefs? Certainly; I was singing a different tune in 1983 as well. Can what he taught in 1983 help up to understand what he teaches today? Indeed.

Some have wrongly identified our ministry today with the false teachings that were popularized by some in the Latter Rain movement. At no time in the past did we have any relationship with this movement.
-Mike Bickle, Affimations and Denials

Listen to "Blow the Trumpet in Zion" on the Internet Archive.

Make It Up As You Go!

2010-05-20T09:02:00.025-04:00

In our previous article we introduced Mike Bickle's sermon "Blow The Trumpet in Zion." To say this sermon was foundational for the Kansas City Fellowship (with IHOP to follow) is an understatement.

In early 1983 prophet Bob Jones had been predicting that something significant was coming for KCF. Quoting David Pytches, "The fellowship had been meeting to pray every single night for five or six months. It was Wednesday night, April 13, when the Lord spoke again directly to Mike Bickle. It was that internal audible voice again. God said, 'Call the people together for a solemn assembly. Call the people together to fast and pray for twenty-one days! This people in the heart of the nation will be like Daniel who, when the children of Israel were in captivity in Babylon, went on a twenty-one-day fast'."

Mike called the congregation, and indeed the city, to this fast on Sunday, April 17, 1983. "Blow the Trumpet" was his response to the audible call of God which he received that week. And it was in this sermon that Mike made statements such as "This is the premier statement of this generation" and "The move of God that’s coming will have great opposition." How emphatic was he? Well, he said "I am saying this with every ounce of my reputation on this."

The formative time for KCF was so significant that David Pytches devoted an entire chapter to the call to a Solemn Assembly in his book about the Kansas City Prophets called "Some Said it Thundered." And Bickle continues to use the model of the Solemn Assembly (Based on Joel 1:14) in his ministry today. Bickle makes references to what he calls their "prophetic history" in his book "Growing in the Prophetic."

As we study this address I want to point out the high level of scripture-twisting that Bickle does. Of course this is aptly demonstrated by some of his contemporary published works, such as his teachings on Song of Songs. It is important to be attuned to this, because many of his premises are supposedly based on scriptural foundations. We need to examine these things to see if they are true (Acts 17:11).

Bickle, speaking of his school, now known as IHOP University, says "We want to combine the gifts of the Spirit with responsible scholarship." Unfortunately, in an atmosphere of direct audible revelation, it is hard to contest an exposition of the scriptures that does not seem to co-exist with responsible scholarship. Especially when that revelation contains gems such as this:

Woe to those that are educated. Not that your education in God is wrong. But the education of many peoples is what causes them to lose their child-heart. And when the word of the Lord comes, their education will keep them from hearing. I’m not talking about education in the world, I’m talking about education in the scriptures. I’m talking about those in the body of Christ who have labored for years in the Word, and they know too much to be used by God. They know too much to be used.

-Mike Bickle, Blow the Trumpet in Zion

As so, with this in mind, I give you an example of "revelatory" scripture-twisting and prophetic pronouncement that would make Todd Bentley blush.

Jesus will be Hanged at his Second Coming

Remember this, it was the religious people, it was the knowledgeable people, it was the Bible scholars that crucified the Lord Jesus Christ at his first coming. I am certain, that it will be the Bible scholars that will be a part of the group that hangs Him at His second coming. Opposition, we’ve never seen anything like it.

-Mike Bickle, Blow the Trumpet in Zion

What can he possibly mean by this? I see three possibilities. Four, if you consider a literal hanging and believe that Bible Scholars will hang Jesus when he returns.

1. He didn't really mean "hang" he just was saying bible scholars will resist. Figure of speech. Of course, this hardly squares with the biblical image of Jesus's return. Or as Ray Steadmen says "But this Second Coming described in the book of Revelation is the true Triumphal Entry."

As to bible scholars resisting, Bickle's paradigm presupposes that 1) they are not saved or 2) that Jesus will not literally return. Otherwise, their eyes would be opened and they would see "face to face" (1 Cor 13:12).

2. It's going to be like "groundhog day" where Jesus just keeps getting crucified over and over. Yeah, he could justify the concept with Hebrews 6:6- except he added the words "at his second coming." (Minor problem - to kill someone by hanging is not the same as crucifixion.)

3. The second return is not a literal return; he is teaching MSoG and the body of Christ becomes the Body of Christ. Note he says "Opposition, ***WE'VE*** never seen anything like it." And he espouses the Civil War in the church, which more likely than not Jones was chatting about over coffee at Mike's house in the evenings in the weeks before this address.

To state that Jesus will be hanged at His second coming is, pardon the pun, really going out on a limb. And this is not an isolated instance.

Babies Killed Forehadows Deliverance

Let me tell one prophetic thing real soon before we go on to Jeremiah 29. At the deliverance, what is the greatest deliverance in the old testament Moses no question. What happened? What significant thing happened to children? Before the greatest deliverance in the old covenant? Children were murdered. What is the greatest deliverance, even greater than that, in the history of mankind? The coming of the Lord Jesus. What happened when he was coming? Children were murdered. What do you think will be the greatest deliverance of history? This generation? What do you think will happen in this generation in an unprecedented manner. Children will be murdered. Abortion will be received and endorsed at an unparalleled level in this generation, because the devil’s activity is at its highest degree in the murdering of innocent children, and the devil always acts before the mightiest deliverances of God. And right now, going across this city and this nation is a prophetic sign of the times. The devil is knows his time is short, he has gone forth in war and in wickedness murdering the innocence of children.

-Mike Bickle, Blow the Trumpet in Zion

OK, here we have Bickle stating that the three examples of the devil murdering innocent children before the mightiest deliverances are:

* Exodus 1 - Pharoah orders male babies killed
* Matthew 2 - Herod's massacre after the birth of Jesus
* Abortion in this generation

When I first wrote this article, I did not think of the Exodus 1 example- instead Exodus 12 came to mind- which was an instance of God smiting the first-born Egyptians. However, a blog reader was quick to point out:

"When Mike referred to the murder of children before the deliverance from Pharoah, he was referring to the male babies being thrown into the Nile, with Moses being saved by his mother. I know this because this paradigm was always taught. Male babies thrown into the Nile. Male babies, ages two and under, being killed in the region of Bethlehem. Babies being aborted today. Just wanted to clear that up in case Mike didn't make that point in this particular teaching."

No he didn't, but thank you reader for clearing that up.

Here's the problem. He makes a (seemingly) profound point which quite frankly is conjecture. Beyond that, this was given in 1983, and the text of the address indicates that they expected this deliverance to follow in three years. It didn't.

In the prophetic world, we call this type of revelatory teaching "Make it up as you go."

Let me tell one prophetic thing...
-Mike Bickle, Blow the Trumpet in Zion

Now, as a side note, I would like to step away from the 1983 sermon and see where this paridigm has taken IHOP in the most blatent extra-biblical manner.

Here's word given to Mark Anderson, a senior international leader in YWAM and
relayed on video at the "IHOPU Awakening." About 6-7 minutes in. The word was "Two for One." For every abortion God was going to release
two souls and bring them into his kingdom.

It is has created the IHOP doctrine of the Shedding of Innocent Blood as taught by Lou Engle. Lou says "It is not enough that Jesus died. Someone must apply the blood of Jesus to the national sin of the USA." Don't get me started.

To understand IHOP today you must understand Bickle's address of 1983.

Listen to "Blow the Trumpet in Zion" on the Internet Archive.

Bickle and the Man-Child

2010-05-12T09:09:00.012-04:00

Updated May 31, 2010
Updated June 13, 2010

This is the first in an ongoing series on the recently recovered recording of Mike Bickle's seminal sermon "Blow The Trumpet in Zion." It was recorded in the early days of the Kansas City Fellowship, five weeks after the appearance of Prophet Bob Jones. The night before this address God gave Mike Bickle a call to gather a solemn assembly. Although a critical document concerning Bickle's IHOP movement, it had dropped off the radar, perhaps because it reveals failed prophecy and bad doctrine.

I am presently transcribing this message and will make that transcription available at a future date. Please join in to the discussion of this critical sermon. I don't have all the answers but I think it is worth the effort to discover the true significance of it.

There are (at least) two schools of thought about the man-child of Revelation. The more orthodox view is that the man-child is Jesus (who will rule all the nations with an iron scepter). Those subscribing to the Manifested Sons of God doctrine believe that the man-child is the victorious, over-coming church that has attained full maturity.

Mike Bickle in "Blow the Trumpet" states (in 1983) "I believe that this is the generation that God has ordained before the beginning of the world to usher in the presence of His Son." Note the similarities between this and the Jehovah Witnesses who said that Jesus would return in 1974, and after 1974 revised that prediction to state that Jesus's presence had returned in 1974.

This, of course, is a blatent contraction of God's Word, in which Jesus states: "Behold, I am with you always." His presence cannot return; it never left.

You say, well maybe Mike meant the actual physical return of Christ. Did he? He quotes a friend as saying: “Mike” he said, “We’re going to keep our appointment with destiny.” He says “It’s unavoidable; it’s before us.”

So the question is "What is that appointment that WE are going to keep?" A related question is "has a generation passed since 1983?"

It is also possible, even likely that Bickle embraces the MSoG teachings and a literal, physical return of Christ. The two thoughts are not necessarily mutually-exclusive.

Mike helps us along by telling is that the setting in which the "precious baby Jesus came into the earth" is the "same setting in which he will give His Son the second time."

Keep in mind that Mike is keenly aware of the imagery of Revelation 12, which speaks of the woman, "being with child" and later of that child being born. He will speak of that later.

And so he proceeds to lay the foundation that "Luke 1 and 2, in my opinion, become the most prophetic chapters in the New Testament of the coming revival." And so Bickle's entire theology rests on the private interpetation that Luke 1 and 2 is eschatological in nature. But to Bickle, perhaps the "coming revival" is the same as the coming of the Lord. Or not.

He further states "The prophecy that was true at his first coming is surely true at his second coming." The nagging question is this - is the second coming of Christ simply a literal return, or does include some MSoG-esque great end-time revival when the church attains "full maturity?"

This is the premier statement of this generation: Nothing will be impossible to the person that believes." -Mike Bickle, 1983

A major premise of the MSoG teaching is that we will become god-like - we will attain immortality, and nothing will be impossible. We will take back dominion of the earth; we will rule and reign. All of this before the resurrection.

The teaching also posits that there will be a great confrontation in the church, as the true believers triumph over the nominal believers. Bickle again:

Many will fall because of this thing, because their hearts are not truly God’s, they’re in the church only in terms of sitting on a pew on Sunday morning."

Many of them sit on church on Sunday morning and they will rise, because they will receive. He said it will be a sign that will be opposed throughout the whole earth.

The move of God that’s coming will have great opposition because in verse 35, it says the-the end of this is that the thoughts of many hearts will be revealed when the move of God comes. Because you see when God’s move comes, there is a confrontation.

Verse 35 speaks of a sword- we don't know if it is a literal sword that "pierces the souls," but one of Bickle's associates, Bob Jones, has often spoken of the coming "Civil War in the church," which is portrayed as a literal bloody slaughter.

But I digress. The question is this - does Mike Bickle teach MSoG? I'll let Mike answer this for himself - he will "stake his reputation" on it.

I am saying this with every ounce of my reputation on this. If I am wrong, as a young man I am ruining my future with what I am going to say. I'm risking everything that I have, I am going out to the nth degree on this statement. And this tape, I am sure, because you're going to be the ones doing it, we are going to take it to every part of this city. So my entire future is based upon this statement. God will move in a new way in this city at the end of that 21 days.

The full-grown child won't be but for three years, but the baby will be born. Dreams and vision will begin to come. The Spirit of prayer will begin to fall. Prayer groups will gather everywhere. Supernatural wisdom will come all over
this city. Signs and wonders will begin. It will be small, beginning, people will begin to be saved at a much higher rate, it will be small, but it will begin and increase, increase. And in a three year period, according, I don't know this, but according to which I believe, it will be a mature man, a mature young man, a strong man, the young child that will be born.

-Mike Bickle "Blow the Trumpet in Zion" 4-17-1983 (Part 2 at 41:50)

Elsewhere in the tape, Bickle explains "in other words, the (city-wide) revival would be in full scale in three years." Regardless, a very strange way of wording things. However, it is worth pointing out that Bickle (at 41:50) was essentially quoting Bob Jones, whom he refused to identify on the tape. (See "Some Said it Thundered" by Pytches for more on this). Jones, whose "new-breed" teachings are hardcore MSoG, very much shaped and influenced the early days of the Kansas City Fellowship.

A faithful reader has pointed out that in Mike Bickle's contemporary series on the book of Revelation Mike (now) states that the male Child is Jesus. see page 3. So the question is, in 1983, did Mike Bickle believe that Jesus was going to return in 1986? Or did he believe in some sort of JW-esque return of His presence? Or was he actually, despite his current denials, teaching MSoG in 1983?

We will continute to look at this document, which indeed is foundational in IHOP beliefs and practices. If Mike Bickle today states "Some uphold the false teaching (MSoG) that in this age believers can have faith that will enable them to attain to qualities of life that are reserved only for believers in the resurrection," then he is clearly denying a current connection with the MSoG heresy. On the otherhand, there can be no doubt that the IHOP orginization has an unhealthy emphasis on dominionsim.

Listen to "Blow the Trumpet in Zion" on the Internet Archive.

Bible Teaching, Bentley-Style

2010-05-04T01:28:00.002-04:00

Isaiah 45
1 "This is what the LORD says to his anointed,
to Cyrus, whose right hand I take hold of
to subdue nations before him
and to strip kings of their armor,
to open doors before him
so that gates will not be shut:

2 I will go before you
and will level the mountains [a] ;
I will break down gates of bronze
and cut through bars of iron.

3 I will give you the treasures of
darkness, riches stored in secret places,
so that you may know that I am
the LORD, the God of Israel, who summons you by name.

Learn all about the "Angel of Finance" a.k.a. the angel called "The International Banker." You say you never read about this in your Bible? Really ?!?!

A God without Measure

2010-03-10T09:13:00.011-05:00

What units of measure does God use? I'm serious - do arbitrary units of measure have meaning and purpose in God's economy? I'm intending to create more questions than I answer in today's post.

Isaiah 40:12 tells us that God "weighed the mountains in scales," but did He use pounds or kilos?

Hey, you say, you are missing the point; this scripture portrays the magnitude of God's greatness. Exactly.

Proverbs 16:11 tells us "Honest scales and balances are from the Lord; all the weights in the bag are of his making." I wonder if they are Avoirdupois or Troy weights?

Again, missing the point. The Message says it well: "God cares about honesty in the workplace; your business is his business."

So why do I bring this up? Well, it seems that even if God may not be concerned, the prophets pay much attention to arbitrary units of measure. If, for instance, we have a flood, and it covers the town of Floodville with seven feet of water, the prophets may say that the number seven means perfection and that God is speaking "perfection" to the town of Floodville. Generally the prophets will speak about some "outpouring" to come (hint: "floods = outpouring" in the prophetic).

This implies that God intended the flood for the citizens of Floodville (it "rains on the just and the unjust") and that he intended that the crest of the flood be measured in feet, not inches, meters, or yards - all of which would generate different numbers.

Or let us suppose that the flood took place in Johnsonville, in the UK, and the flood crested at 3.16 meters. The prophets may declare that this means that "God so loved the world" (John 3:16).

All of this presumes that 1) God recognizes specific arbitrary units of measure for specific events 2) He intends that the event "send a message" 3) the name of the locale that the event hits may have specific meaning pertaining to His message and 4) He calibrates the event to the chosen arbitrary unit of measure so that the number has meaning. It also presumes in this example that the Chapter and verse numbers in the bible (missing in the original manuscripts) were "God breathed."

I might add that for the purpose of this article we are setting aside who caused the "natural disaster" in the first place. Is it God's judgement, or chastisement, or is he simply making the best of a bad situation? OK, I said we were setting that aside. At least for a little while.

Along with the numerology, and the hidden meanings, very often we see the prophets imply that the frequency of these disasters is somehow unusual. The prophet may say that there will be a season of this disaster or that disaster and that God is speaking through it.

This may or may not be the case. If I have a "word of knowledge" in a meeting of 2000 people that someone has back pain, it may be remarkable. Or not.

Now, lest I be misunderstood, I do not deny that so-called natural events can have meaning. In legal terms these events are even called "Acts of God." Even rainbows can have meaning. God ordained meaning.

If I prophesy a season of earthquakes and then two earthquakes happen within a few months, does that mean anything? Keep in mind that on average earthquakes in the magnitude range of the recent one in Haiti occur more often than once a month.

Recently, Cindy Jacobs spoke a prophetic word.I do not wish to single her out. I bring this up only because it is representative of this prophetic genre. Some of the background information she gives includes some remarkable coincidences which may actually be God speaking; I only differ with her conclusions. As an alternative explanation, I suggest that God may have been calling her (and others?) to more prayer and intercession.

Then I proceeded to prophesy about earthquakes: "I'm going to shake the earth. You will begin to see earthquakes. ... I am coming to shake everything that can be shaken."

Look where the earthquakes are hitting because God is going to release a wind of Pentecost in those places. God has a way of taking those things that Satan means for evil and bringing great glory out of them. That will be the case for these disasters.

On January 12, after the December 31 prophecy about earthquakes, Haiti was rocked with a massive 7.0 magnitude shaking (the number "7" symbolizes full circle or completion), and then Chile was hit on February 27. The 8.8 magnitude earthquake in Chile ("8" symbolizes new beginnings) rocked the city of Concepción, which means "conception" or "birthing." I believe the event points to the birthing of double new beginnings of glory in the earth. I believe God desires not only to heal Chile and Haiti but also to turn these terrible disasters into good for His people."

Earlier I said, "Is it God's judgement, or chastisement, or is he simply making the best of a bad situation?" Now according to Jacobs, in this case, it is the latter. She states "God has a way of taking those things that Satan means for evil and bringing great glory out of them."

Now for the real brain twister. Look, I know we cannot comprehend God's complexity. But according to Jacobs, God calibrated these earthquakes to a specific arbitrary measurement scale (either the Richter scale of the Moment Magnitude scale, not sure which) to yield specific numbers (7.0 or 8.8) to speak a specific message.

So, under this paradigm, God is either unable or unwilling to stop an earthquake spawned by Satan, but He is able to tinker with the magnitude in order to speak a message. I write this with fear and trembling, I do not want to even appear to mock God. I suppose all of this could be true, but why?

And there are other issues.

"Look where the earthquakes are hitting because God is going to release a wind of Pentecost in those places."

The earthquakes are hitting where earthquakes have always hit. Pesky tectonic plates.

She goes on to say: "Concepcion, which means conception or birthing."

Actually in this case the word is better translated "beginning." The city was originally named Concepcion del Nuevo Extremo which literally means "Conception of the New End" as it was at the edge of the Frontier, and could be paraphrased as the "Beginning of the End" which would be even more fun in a spooky prophetic way.

Concepcion is in its second location, by the way. "Due to earthquakes and tsunamis, which razed the town in 1570, 1657, 1687, 1730 and another on May 25, 1751, the authorities decided to move the town to its current location to the Valle de la Mocha, alongside the Bío-Bío River and prohibited the occupation of the old location, which remained unsettled until March 29, 1842, when the present town of Penco was founded." (wikipedia)

Penco, of course, means "a really stupid idea." Once again Penco was engulfed by a tsunami spawned by the recent earthquake.

I apologize to anyone in these locales for my shabby attempt at ghoulish humor. And I wonder if the prophets should apologize for trying to make something out of something that might not really be there.

I remember a time long ago when flood waters destroyed a building project at my house. The thud of the wall collapsing was absolutely sickening. We were a young couple; it had a profound effect on our finances, and our income was quite limited. Did it have a prophetic message? Should I have counted the number of fallen cinder blocks to gain further insight? If the blocks were made by the Sureblock company, did that have special meaning? The wall was built by a man named Elmer? Did that have meaning?

I think not. I turned to the scriptures and they told me everything I needed to know.

Although the fig tree shall not blossom, neither shall fruit be in the vines; the labour of the olive shall fail, and the fields shall yield no meat; the flock shall be cut off from the fold, and there shall be no herd in the stalls:

Yet I will rejoice in the LORD, I will joy in the God of my salvation.

The LORD God is my strength, and he will make my feet like hinds' feet, and he will make me to walk upon mine high places.
Habakkuk 3:17-19
This has been, and will always be my story. God prevails.

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Coming soon - what does it mean?

OKLAHOMA CITY(AP) -- Forecasters say a wetter-than-usual winter and a jet stream ripping over the part of the country known as "Tornado Alley" could lead to an active spring -- perhaps starting with the strong twister that nicked a small western Oklahoma town Monday night.

The nation typically will see 70-100 tornadoes by early March, but only 42 had been reported until Monday night's Oklahoma tornado. There was only one tornado nationwide during February.

"No one would argue that we're going to see a pretty good increase in the number of severe storms," said Greg Carbin, the warning coordination meteorologist with the national Storm Prediction Center in Norman, Okla. "But each year's a little different. The number, magnitude, number of days are all very tentative at this point."

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